Forums / Gun Discussion / 1911 is back! Marine Force Recon gives Colt new contract

4 years 5 weeks ago, 5:19 PM

Vaquero

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Colt beat out Springfield and Recon is soon to be well armed.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/07/19/m45-marsoc-pistol-co...

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4 years 5 weeks ago, 5:38 PM

daisycutter

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Try as they may they can't argue with success, armed people who's job is facing extreme violence depend on the 1911 handgun in .45 for it's simplicity and reliability.

iyaoyas
4 years 5 weeks ago, 6:33 AM

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Very Good news. Nice to see a move back to the .45, especially an american icon like colt.

4 years 5 weeks ago, 10:30 AM

MattyTheJet

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YES!

1911 is back! Nobody does it better than John Moses Browning and now everyone recognizes it again.

4 years 5 weeks ago, 8:27 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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1911

w00t!

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4 years 5 weeks ago, 10:57 AM

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sweet!!! 1911 all the way!!!

The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission. ~John F. Kennedy~
4 years 3 weeks ago, 1:04 AM

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my grips came in for the pistols.. went thru a gal in SC (brit accent) and ordered two sets of USN with ingraving of USN and anchor on the side, should tie the two together, even if the rem/rand is parkerized.. dark enough that it should work.. Nope not on them yet but that will happen soon.

For what it's worth i stoped at Cabellas on the way home from pooch sitting today.. That whole kid in candy store analogy works here.. as does drool hanging off face etc.. Not as impressed with the gun liberary as i normally am, but where else can you find a 500 nitro express with engraved lions and tigers.. Not much else in the library with exception of an old Smith triple lock, and a WAY cool old Colt 32-20 DA revolver..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 2 weeks ago, 2:13 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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Meh.

There are many sidearms that are cheaper, lighter, more reliable and hold more ammo (and yes they're still .45ACPs for you 'size queens'). The 1911 may be familiar to those brave folks, but aside from that I think it's is a very poor choice.

The MEUSOC/MARSOC accuracy requirement I recall from a previous RFP (4" @ 25yds, just fine for almost any military sidearm) does not justify the choice of platform either. A higher accuracy requirement (from FBI HRT for example) *would* be tough to do outside of a steel/steel handfitted gun.

Add the photos I've seen of multiple major-component failures on the Colt test guns, I can't see this as a 'win' for anyone but Colt.

4 years 2 weeks ago, 5:42 AM

howard

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1911

Thank God they went back to something you can shoot all day and have it stiil maintain it's reliability. I packed one thru Viet Nam and never had any problems.

4 years 2 weeks ago, 6:23 AM

MattyTheJet

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Still my sidearm of choice.

4 years 2 weeks ago, 8:28 AM

daisycutter

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but, I'm still waiting for someone to build a more reliable handgun.
Dedication to "something more modern" is nice but history favors the 1911

iyaoyas
4 years 2 weeks ago, 8:51 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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To be honest

I don't have very much experience with many newer handguns, but if there is anything that is truly better than a 1911, I would be extremely impressed.

Admittedly, my 1911 experiences have been modern 1911A1 repros like springfield, RIA, and such. Those have modifications from the original spec to make them more accurate and reliable (the feed ramp, for example). And I haven't looked at the Colt variant at all.

But for me, weight isn't a concern. I've never felt the weight of the 1911 was an issue. As a matter of fact, I prefer it's heft.

The only other sidearms I've handled that I think could be in the running (for my personal preferences) would be the Sigs. I like the Cz75b, but I would prefer some of the Sigs or 1911 over it.

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4 years 2 weeks ago, 10:04 AM

daisycutter

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I don't have girly hands :<)
The weight of the gun helps me control recoil, I'm strong enough to handle the weight.
I've owned several 1911s, all GI, no race guns or clones, no failures, period.
I enjoy plinking out to 50yds, it's good for match competition
at that range, accurate enough but it's not a sniper rifle, would need a
butt stock attached for that, LOL!
No one can criticize the 1911 and make it stick. The gun works.

You got to handle my .380ACP, cool gun and only $108 +S&H. It's
a terrific gun but I managed to score a Sig since I was at your house,
it's now my carry weapon. My 1911 kept pulling my pants down ROTFL!
I hope to get back to Dallas (traffic GRRRR) sometime so we can go shootin'.

iyaoyas
4 years 2 weeks ago, 11:05 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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I'd like that. Which Sig did you get? The P238?

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
4 years 2 weeks ago, 11:27 AM

daisycutter

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nifty stuff LOL
It came in WAY under MSRP, way under. Is there something wrong with them?
Instruction book says DO NOT use solvent to clean it, only gun oil. Interesting, huh?

iyaoyas
4 years 2 weeks ago, 11:58 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Oil only

That is odd. Still, I trust the Sig Sauer name, and as long as you follow their recommendations, I imagine the piece will perform for many years. Good to hear you got it under MSRP.

How's the situation going at the homestead? Are things getting back to normal yet?

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
4 years 2 weeks ago, 12:04 PM

daisycutter

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so good.
The new dishwasher is a cheap piece compared to the one that got fried but it'll get dishes just as clean.
Now, if I can make some Jello for Mrs. Daisy before she whacks me LOL

Off to the kitchen, c u later

iyaoyas
4 years 2 weeks ago, 11:30 AM

MattyTheJet

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Polymer Guns

I think we're going to see a lot more agencies going back to metal framed guns, especially in the wake of the border Patrol Agent's H&K P2000 failing the way it did recently.

4 years 2 weeks ago, 9:50 AM

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1911's: I love them. Yes, they are heavy. But, like SJMB, I like that. Is it fun for carrying, no, it's not. A compact 1911 LW with aluminum frame helps. I love the 1911, but in my opinion using my own guns, a glock and a sig are probably less picky about ammo and more reliable in the long run. That being said, I haven't had any FTF, FTE or any failures at all in the last few 1911's I've been shooting..... so far. But I have had the occasional hickup now and again in the past. However, I still would trust my life to it because I think the early problems were probably my fault. Limp wristing etc. In my opinion a 1911 can be very reliable as long as you keep up with changing your springs periodically. Is a 1911 the best for the military these days? I don't know. I'm not in the military, so I can't answer that question. I've seen the pics of the stress cracks in the slides of the test pistols. It doesn't bother me too much however, since my pistols will never see anywhere near that kind of abuse. It all comes down to what you like and what you personally shoot best. I shoot 1911's better than I can shoot anything else. That's probably because of the trigger. And, I have to admit, that for me, there is just something sexy about holding one.

4 years 2 weeks ago, 10:08 AM

daisycutter

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Getting kinda kinky here Catfish LOL!!!

iyaoyas
4 years 2 weeks ago, 10:58 AM

catfish88

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LOL Daisy

Yea, I'm weird that way!!

4 years 2 weeks ago, 3:42 PM

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yeah but

4,000 Colts is not to many and i know they are not going to end up in the hands of the Front line Recon for the most part anyway,why,because Recon will do more Damage with a radio and laser pointer than any sidearm.If any Recon Marine has to pull a pistol,several things have to had gone horribly wrong.I could see one Colt per fireteam,and the guy carrying it is probably gonna be pissed,nobody wants to carry excessive weight.

My guess,most of these are going to stay in an armory,at the range,and in an officers dress uniform.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 2 weeks ago, 7:38 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Good point LBC

That's likely very true.

Very good fact: "If any Recon Marine has to pull a pistol, several things have to had gone horribly wrong."

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
4 years 4 days ago, 4:04 PM

ACPaulTac1022

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Yeah but....

luckybychoice wrote:
4,000 Colts is not to many and i know they are not going to end up in the hands of the Front line Recon for the most part anyway,why,because Recon will do more Damage with a radio and laser pointer than any sidearm.If any Recon Marine has to pull a pistol,several things have to had gone horribly wrong.I could see one Colt per fireteam,and the guy carrying it is probably gonna be pissed,nobody wants to carry excessive weight.

My guess,most of these are going to stay in an armory,at the range,and in an officers dress uniform.

Return of the 1911 also suggests the usefulness of the .45 ACP round for military use has not been totally eclipsed by the 9mm para.

Do I want to carry more rounds of a smaller caliber bullet that exit the barrel faster?
or do I want to carry fewer rounds of a larger caliber bullet that exit the barrel slower?
http://www.officer.com/article/10232606/9mm-vs-45acp-really-again

3 years 51 weeks ago, 8:05 PM

HampsterW

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You just can't beat

a 1911, period! No matter what derivative, that SOB will run. My PT1911 is the best hand gun that I own.....

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 51 weeks ago, 10:38 AM

MattyTheJet

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Agreed!

I have an Argentine Colt and it's pure bliss!

3 years 51 weeks ago, 9:39 PM

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I just finished rolling a few home made rounds of .45 and printed some targets, tomorrow morning I make big noise! LOL

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 1:14 PM

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$1800 per unit? If anyone wants an explanation as to why we have such a national debt, well here you go. If they want a .45, there are many you can buy off the shelf at retail for half that. So how does this make any sense? Let's pay 2-3 times as much for what? What's next, is the air force going to buy some p 51's at $100,000,000 a unit? Or how about the navy order some coal fired ships. The best though is that these guns may never get used in combat. We can't provide enough body armor, but that generals got a cool new sidearm. Look the 1911 is a great gun, but so was the m1. But I don't see the military going back to it. If they need a special 45, why can't they use the HK socom that has already been approved. This is some generals pet project that has a high cost with little or no return. I'm sorry if this upsets some folks, but this is just plain stupid misuse of tax money.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 11:41 AM

MattyTheJet

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Well

If you're willing to indulge a theory from a sci-fi movie there might be an answer. In Independence Day there was a scene at Area 51 where the President asked "how does this place even exist?" and Judd Hirsch's character says "you really think they pay $700 for a toilet seat and $200 for a hammer?" Just a thought....

3 years 50 weeks ago, 2:27 PM

daisycutter

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$1800 is not terribly out of the ball park.
IF and I really mean IF those guns go to special operations units to be used on operations I can accept the price but if they are hip decorations for Gigadeer Brindles then it is a bullship waste of money that could have been just as well served with a $500 1911. Mine cost me just under$300 in the late 1980s, still going strong but it's not been soaked in salt water, coated with nasty body sweat for days or any of the other rigors of extended special ops.
Custom built 1911s run into some serious $$ like about $5100 base price + Tax, admitting they are "sexier" than the ones the Marines are getting, but if they earn their keep so be it, ya think?

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 3:08 PM

coppertop

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Need is a relative term. Do they need or do they want this 1911. For those that are serving on the front line, they need the best we can give them. I question why they "need this gun". We have good guns that are already approved that fire 45. These same guns have been battle tested. So why do they need this one? The other side is that to make this platform battle ready, then it has to be custom. Once again, we already have a 45 if that is what they need. This is about getting someone's want. If the 1911 is so much better, then why not give them rock islands at $500 a copy. My point is that someone wants the 1911 no matter the cost. I have a SA 1911, great gun and shoots fine. However, it is not milspec and I have heard the stories from many people of the stock colts they shot in the service. With anything other than fmj, they had trouble. My 1911 has a lot of those custom upgrades to make it run. So what did I get for my $850? My glock 21 cost a little over half and has twice the capacity and didn't need any upgrades to work. I bought the 1911 because I wanted it and always liked it. But that doesn't mean that I over look the 1911's weak points. Every gun ever made has weaknesses. There are trade offs for size, weight, capacity, and complexity. The purpose of a military sidearm is last ditch defense. So how does giving up half of your ammo capacity improve your defense? If a force recon marine has to pull a sidearm, the shit has hit the fan with only 7 shots before reload. On top of that, for less capacity you get extra weight. You want to reduce the weight that operators carry, not increase it. It is a very cool looking gun, but how much are we going to pay for cool? If its my personal money, whatever I want. If its my tax money, then cool is not a high priority.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 8:05 PM

daisycutter

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you said: "The purpose of a military sidearm is last ditch defense. So how does giving up half of your ammo capacity improve your defense? If a force recon marine has to pull a sidearm, the shit has hit the fan with only 7 shots before reload. On top of that, for less capacity you get extra weight. You want to reduce the weight that operators carry, not increase it."

That's a discussion you should take up with S.W.A.T. teams and military special ops groups. There has to be a reason why they abandon 9MM whatevers and went back to .45ACP, in many cases they went to 1911. I dunno, maybe they wanted to level the playing field giving the bad guys an even chance.

Post # 4200 Whoopeee!!!!!!

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 8:29 PM

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Coppertop

I dis-agree with your statement about the less capacity for more weight. I have used the Military issue 9mm, and it leaves much to be desired. It has a trigger pull that is greater than the over-all weight, and the 9mm leaves much to be desired in a combat scenario. I know first-hand of a 9mm round going through the target and hitting a friendly, and the intended target didn't go down. True, shot placement left much to be desired, but I feel the .45 IS a better round. I AM NOT getting into the 9mm Vs .45, but lets be honest, most soldiers are no "Expert Marksmen". Add to that the stress of combat, and I feel that the .45 is better suited for a military pistol.

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 50 weeks ago, 9:25 PM

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I didn't suggest them using the m9. I suggested that they use a 45 that has a higher capacity. Trying to keep it apples to apples.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 9:13 PM

coppertop

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Well, Pat Rogers wrote a really good article about this in the last issue of swat. In that article he explained why he stop carrying the 45 and is now using a 9mm. I won't try to restate what he wrote. But think of this. In the law enforcement communities there seems to be a lot of group think. At one time, they all carried revolvers. Then 9mm wonder nines were all the rage. Berettas ruled until the glock arrived. Most agencies use the .40 sw now in some sort of poly framed gun. As we have seen in other threads, there is no majic bullet or gun. Both the 9mm and .45 have around for over a hundred years and have both killed armies of men. The gun and caliber don't make the shooter. It's the shooter that's makes the gun. That being said, paying 3 prices for gun that is heavier, more complex, and holds fewer rounds doesn't seem to make sense. The reality is that any handgun round doesn't ensure a one shot stop. The harsh reality is that multiple shots will have to be made to stop the threat. Why are swat teams going the the 1911, my guess is that they heard that some other group was and they want to be cool too. Why do most law enforcement agencies use the 40? Because everyone else uses it.

I like shooting my 1911. I've got a great holster for concealed carry. But it is heavy and not all that comfortable. For that reason I often carry my ppk. The 1911 my be more accurate than my glock 21, but in a tactical setting that diffence is negligible. I can hit the 10 ring with both. Translation, with ether weapon the bad guy is getting it center mass. So, I have asked this several times across different threads, what am I getting from the 1911 that my glock 21 has not also provided? If you hate glock, just substitute it for a FNP or HK. I can understand how some can wax nostalgic for the return of the 1911 to military duty. However, the 1911 never really left the service. When I was on active duty, my ship did not have a beretta or m 16 except what the marines carried. We still had 1911s and m 14s. This is not an attack on the 1911, I own one and like it. I just think that this not about getting the best for the troops, but feeding someone's ego.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 9:28 AM

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Coppertop..

First off, I will agree that while I think the 1911 is a great gun and am VERY happy to see it's return.... I think they are paying to much, in typical military fashion. You made your statement about it being to heavy, and it is heavy... but consider how they are carrying it. It isn't in a concealed carry rig, or even a belt holster... It is either in a full-blown thigh rig, or mounted on the Body armour in a cross-draw. Personally, I am NOT a believer in more bullets is better. even if they are the same caliber. To many times I have seen soldiers wasting ammo at non-existent targets because they feel " I'm good, I have 300 more rounds". The primary purpose of the pistol is to be used during CQB where a rifle or carbine is to awkward, or in an emergency transition while reloading their primary weapon. Either case, 8 rounds is plenty.

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 50 weeks ago, 11:11 AM

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Ronin

Ok, we're almost there but that doesn't answer the question about what my 1911 can do that my glock 21 can't? If a person doesn't practice shot discipline to begin with, having less isn't going to change that. It just means that they will run out sooner. Just changing the carry position doesn't change the weight being carried. It may be easier to carry, but when added to everything else, is the extra weight justified? My gut tells me that this has very little to with facts, logic, or reason. There is an emotional attachment that is driving this. The great col. Cooper said that the 1911 is the best so it has to be. Once again I'm not attacking the 1911. It has established itself as one of the best guns of all time. What I am attacking is the waste of our tax money. Give solid proof that this gun will serve those marines better than what they already have. The seals have a purpose built 45 from HK why not use it? It sounds like they need to focus on training and not be putting their hopes on a certain gun to solve their problems. My uncle has gone from berettas to glocks to a 1911 and guess what, he still can't hit shit. The 1911 is a great gun, but it won't make you a good shot.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 1:19 PM

daisycutter

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roughly $1900 each, weigh about the same as a 1911 colt but carries what, 5 more heavy rounds? fundamentally the MK23 is a 1911 in the way it field strips and functions. I don't understand why you are so upset about the Marines wanting this gun, I don't doubt it being every bit as good as the MK23 and a few bucks cheaper.

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 2:19 PM

coppertop

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My question was why did we go thru a procurement process when we have a 45 for spec ops. The procurement process cost money. But let's get off the money issue for now. What problem does this new gun solve? I posed a question as to what a 1911 can do that a glock 21 can't. So far no one has given an answer. The closest to an answer is "to each their own". I'm not asking people to lay down their 1911s. Our military has always had a bad habit of preparing to fight the last war. Ronin stated that the 9mm doesn't have the power. Ok, I'll buy that. So get them a 45. But why does it have to be colt 1911? So be the salesman here, I come in to your gun store and see this new military grade gun. I like it, but ask why does cost more than twice the SA loaded in the same counter. I go on to ask why I don't just go on and get a full custom 1911. Then I ask what this will do that the FNP 45 wouldn't also do. I'm not trying to pick a fight. But if the spending in this country is going to become sustainable,someone has to ask. This is the type scrutiny that is needed on every aspect of the budget. I'm a gun guy and spend way too much time and money, just ask my wife. I, unlike the government, have to spend within my budget. I have a 1911, but it doesn't make me better. I question that it will make a marine better. I also question that this solves a problem that can't be solved with less expense.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 7:12 PM

daisycutter

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I'm ready to talk about something else.

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 7:57 PM

coppertop

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That new cabelas in Rogers is nice. Better than the bass pro in Branson. But not as good as the bass pro in Springfield.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 8:09 PM

daisycutter

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impressed LOL. (It's been a long time)
GF wanted her picture taken in front of the huge bear. Just as I clicked it she turned around, looked like she was doing a Lewenski on the bear. She tore up the pic & negative.:<))

I'd gone to Springfield to go to the Frisco Museum, they were not open that day and not long after that they shut it down. My G-Father & G-G-Father were both Frisco employees. Supposedly they had employee records, I wanted to see what they had on my kin.

Went to the Rogers Cabela's twice, 1st time got some reloading stuff, 2nd time was going to buy a holster for my Sig, they did not have any. Wife ate Wild Boar & I had Bison, good food. I'll just order a holster over the 'net.

Ya ready for another week of great weather?

iyaoyas
3 years 50 weeks ago, 8:33 PM

coppertop

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Yeah, we had crazy storms on Friday. Got some big limbs down in the yard. I usually clean that up myself, with one arm in a cast I can't. Going to have to break down and hire a guy. I would just let it wait two more weeks until the cast is off, but there is a really big limb from my tree on my neighbors garage. I'm just glad we got rain.

3 years 50 weeks ago, 11:12 PM

daisycutter

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Rank:
General of the Army
Points:
5724
Join Date:
Jul 2009
Location:
Arkansas

house in that storm.
3 people in Nowata and one furthur east died in that storm. I was coming home with a car load of G-Kids when it hit here, No probs, just lots of wind & rain.

iyaoyas

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