2 years 16 weeks ago, 7:35 AM
sytasyn_syn   |
.380 Vs. The World
I would like to hash out reasons to NOT own a .380 as a carry gun. The round can be bought to pop paper all day long but the ballistics on the round for self defense are terrible. I shall prove my point with ballistic charts and solid information. Be Kind and Courteous to All That You Meet, But Always Have A Plan to Kill Them
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sytasyn_syn
.380 Auto 88gr JHP 191 ft.lbs. Diameter .355"
.38 Spl. 158 gr. SWC 200 ft.lbs. .357"
9mmLuger 115gr.JHP 341 ftlbs .355"
.357 Mag 125 gr. SJHP 583 ft. lbs .357"
.357 Sig 125 gr. JHP 506 ft.lbs .355"
Larry Wagner
Not going to argue with that, numbers don't lie. But, 3 things.(1) I own a .380 & do not hesitate to pack it in the right situation, going to the mail box, Etc. but 99.9% of the time, I have my 45 or
2 1/4" .357 (2) A mag full of .380's in the face, throat, groin &, if still breathing, you WILL
leave me alone!! (3) The old saying is true "anything is better than nothing"
Now, would I go buy one for defense? Nope!! Would I buy another just to have & shoot?
Only if it were another BDA, because that's just one classy piece of machinery.
sytasyn_syn
I choose to get stats from the Speer site. These are Speer Gold-Dot HP, The only ammo I use when I carry. I say this so you know I am taking a popular ammo that a lot of people use. The rounds I choose are because the reason I hear people say they bought the .380 is for the size. All of these have tiny guns available that are chamber for them.
.380 Auto 90 grain
Velocity (feet per second)
Muzzle 1040 fps
50 yards 943 fps
100 yards 871 fps
Energy (in foot puonds)
Muzzle 216 fp
50 yards 178 fp
100 yards 152 fp
.38 SP +P 125 grain
Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle 945 fps
50 yards 891 fps
100 yards 845 fps
Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 248 fps
50 yards 220 fps
100 yards 198 fps
9mm +P 124 grain
Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle 1220 fps
50 yards 1085 fps
100 yards 996 fps
Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 410 fp
50 yards 324 fp
100 yards 273 fp
Now with this information alone you would have to make the decision to carry something else. If it is fo self defense and you need it small, skip the .380. If a tiny gun is what your after then there are guns chambered to these three rounds. If you're really looking for a small gun to hide in your butt crack because you consider the size more than the round...get a Derringer. 22. Just hope you don't have to use it.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
sytasyn_syn
45 Auto +P 200 grain
Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle 1080 fps
50 yards 994 fps
100 yards 930 fps
Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 518 fp
50 yards 439 fp
100 yards 384 fp
.357 Mag 200 grain
Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle 1235 fps
50 yards 1119 fps
100 yards 1036 fps
Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 535 fp
50 yards 440 fp
100 yards 377 fp
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
howard
I use the .380 as a defensive back-up to my .45 Kimber compact. At ten feet you should be worried about bullet placement and not foot pounds. I think it's a little puny for first defense however it will do the job if needed.
Reaper308
as mentioned above, its more of a back up than a primary weapon. I also agree that anything is better than nothing.
Saint J.M. Browning
That why I prefer my 1911. It just feels right in my hand, the .45ACP will put the biggest of the big on the ground, and it's thin profile is OK for carry.
I've heard the arguments that you have to have a smaller sidearm for carry, but I carry my Govt. Model or my Judge w/o too much problem. Yeah, it's not the most comfortable, but I can do it and I'd rather have one of those two to a micro .380.
I've also heard the arguments from the 9mm crowd of the capacity of the 9. But the thing is, I only need one. ;)
But like some other posters mention, it's still better than nothing. And I've told my son that if he happens to be home alone and someone breaks in to grab the .22 and aim for the neck and eyes.
Ishootdaily
Wouldn't exist today if it didn't...
runawaygun762
Handgun rounds that are commonly used for defense don't produce enough energy to really set one apart. Very few produce enough energy to cause any serious trauma through "energy dump". The fact is, in order to cause incapacitation, you must hit something important with the projectile itself. Where the .380 really fails is in the ability to penetrate deeply enough to reliably hit vital organs.
If technology a few decades ago allowed us to have the kinds of subcompact 9mms and 45s like have today, the .380 probably never would have existed.
I personally wouldn't feel too uncomfortable if I had to carry a .380, because the user is ultimately more important than the caliber, but it definitely won't be my first choice.
sytasyn_syn
I supplied the specs, and you said what I was thinking before I could get back on. Thanks for speaking for me! I totally agree.
tallguy007
I got one,BUT if you use the right ammo like me MAGSAFE hollow point with bb's in it. Sopost to hit like a 10mm but as life is IT IS WHAT IT IS not every one can carry a full size or wants a bigger bang. TY
runawaygun762
Prefragmented, frangible, and pellet-filled ammo can be very effective, but it still has to reach the vitals. I think the worst thing someone can do is buy defense ammo based on energy ratings. The top priority should be, in my always correct opinion, reliability and accuracy in your particular gun. Which load shoots closest to point of aim through all ranges. I spent quite a bit of money buying defensive ammo from multiple manufacturers. Extreme Shock AFR frangible rounds are devastating when they hit, but not as accurate as I would like in my Glocks. The two best loads I've found (for my guns) were Speer GDHP "Short Barrel" load and Cor Bon +P JHP. The Cor Bon had a couple feeding problems when initially loading the weapon. I had no issues during firing, but my concern would be having a failure to feed while reloading, so Speer won.
There are loads out there than make the .380 acceptable, but definitely not a good first choice, escpecially with the size of many subcompact 9mm
sytasyn_syn
The energy of the round does matter though. The more energy the more "shock" to the body. If you hit bone with more energy it is more likely to break, shatter or puncture. The penetration is key though. If someone could find RELIABLE stats on penetration on ballistics gel for the 9mm GDHP, .380 GDHP, .38SP +P GDHP, and the .45 ACP GDHP. I would love to look at them. I am interested in seeing those stats!
samD
Cartridge : 9mm Luger +P 100 grain Cor-Bon Pow’R Ball (part #PB09100/20)
Firearm : Recoil operated semi-auto pistol with 4.0” barrel length.
Calibration : 8.5 ± 0.05cm BB penetration at 579 ± 0.500 ft/sec. BB partially obscured by permanent cavitation, but is visible on image.
Shot 1 penetrated 12.2 ± 0.031”. 0.608 ± 0.0005” average diameter. Chronograph malfunction gave impact velocity of ‘1055 ft/sec’.
Shot 2 exited side of block at 10.9 ± 0.031”, bullet not recovered. Chronograph malfunction gave impact velocity of ‘1021 ft/sec’.
Shot 3 penetrated 11.3 ± 0.031”. 0.616 ± 0.0005” average diameter. Impact velocity = 1464 ± 0.500 ft/sec.
Shot 4 penetrated 11.9 ± 0.031”. 0.581 ± 0.0005” average diameter. Impact velocity = 1471 ± 0.500 ft/sec.
Shot 5 penetrated 12.1 ± 0.031”. 0.587 ± 0.0005” average diameter. Chronograph malfunction gave impact velocity of ‘997 ft/sec’.
Shug22
Whether debating or arguing this issue, some times there comes a point where you just say thank you for the info and leave it alone. I am almost there. I will continue to carry my .380 every day and pray that I don't have to shoot somebody in the heart or head and after his death wish I had had a .40 or .45. I will also pray that someone who wouldn't carry a full size weapon because of the size and could have lived if he had had a .380. Thanks for all of the info and I just hope that everyone makes the right choice for themselves. God bless everyone and please stay safe out there.
BtheKid1881
the 380 is a perfect backup weapon. I have carried a 380 a lot but only if I'm going somewhere and will be right back. I don't like to carry it all day or if I'm going somewhere for a long time. I really think it is just somebodies preference on what they like and want. Obviously the specs speak for themselves but preference is everything.
DEMO
In NY I need a carry gun. I bought the bodyguard because of the concealment factor. I cant carry my 1911-too big of a footprint to carry. It is reliable through 100 rounds. the laser is another deterant
Ironmike15
While I hazzard to comment, I definitely believe the 380 has a place. It has been around for many decades for a reason. I use to hear the same arguments about energy and power about the 9mm as well. Those arguments have for the most part faded. The reason for the 380 are quite simple. It is a gun. Most people flee when a gun is presented. Not everyone.. but most. You can easily place 4 or 5 shots on target very quickly. The gun can be very small and yet still be extremely easy to shoot as there is little perceptable recoil. With modern bullet technology energy over 200 ftlbs is easily achieved...corbon..buffalo bore..and others. Carry guns are trade offs. I have carried a colt mustang many times. I can empty a magazine into a pie plate in a few seconds quite easily. I suspect most others could do the same. That could seriously change someones mind. I also prefer larger guns, but sometimes it is not at all practical. Those times are made for the 380.
Ishootdaily
Personally I put the 380, 32, 25 (wouldn't own one) and 22 in the belly and head shot gun class. Up close and personaly, instead of pulling one of the two knifes I have on my person.
I'd like to hear from anyone on the site that has been shot with a 380 explain just how it all turned out for them...
I do not own one and would only own a few select models. Those are all based upon personal preferences but then again it is the same with anyone, a personal preference on what they will or won't carry.
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209241627/0
for what it's worth here is some simple testing someone posted about on the KelTEC forum.
http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm
Ballistics and Ammo at Mouseguns.com
dentalninja
I acknowledge the shortcomings of the .380 auto (I own a Ruger LCP), but also owning a Glock 26 9mm, it is obvious that one gun is MUCH more concealable.
Is the LCP better than a .22 derringer? You bet your arse it is. Is it as good as a 9mm with 115 +P Corbon ammo? Hell no.
The question comes down to this (especially in the lighter-clothed days of summer)...will you carry a full-sized weapon, or compact, or sub-compact, in a manstopping caliber?
Or will you carry a truly concealable gun that, with hundreds of rounds of practice, you can place accurately and effectively?
I know that in certain instances, it is rather unlikely that I would carry even a Glock-26 sized weapon around. However, the LCP is something that almost always can be well-concealed. And something is ALWAYS better than nothing, IMO.
runawaygun762
that makes it not feasible to carry a subcompact 9mm. Hell, I can carry a G19 in my Don Hume IWB under a t-shirt and not print. My G26 disappears. With the number of men who carry cell phones on their belts nowadays, NOBODY will notice the slight print if the wind presses your shirt against you while wearing an IWB holster. Carrying concealed takes practice, plain and simple. Carrying a mousegun is an equipment answer to a training issue.
dentalninja
I have been practicing with different IWB holsters in carrying the Glock 26 lately.
Although it can be a 'pocket gun' in certain instances--like when wearing cargo pants/shorts--it really does boil down to using the right holster, in the right location for your body type...and practicing carrying the weapon. The LCP .380 can be carried in almost any pocket, although access can be a problem. And the LCP is hard to shoot well.
At any rate, I definitely feel much more secure with the 9mm with 11 rounds of +P than I do with 6 rounds of...whatever.
Ironmike15
Yes, this may be the answer but it is expensive. I have been looking at some on gun broker. I am very interested in these in 9mm
traderjac
If I lived in a place where If elt I needed to carry a gun for my safety, I would move.
But if I had to carry a weapon for protection, it wouldn't be a pistol, it would either be a m14
or a 10 shot shot gun. If I am in danger I don't want to hide my weapon. In my youth I kept
a Colt 1911 in my car loaded all the time. With the biggest hollow points I could find to reload with.
Ishootdaily
Where you live isn't exactly the issue. Crime and people who value life less than they value what they want is not a geographically specific issue.
We have had people walking into a store who were shoved to the ground and shot in the forehead by the guy running out of the store who had just killed a shopper and wounded the clerk.
We have had people in up scale sub divisions who have answered their door or even refused to answer the door after looking through the peep hole, have the person burst into the home shoot those within the home and steal what they like.
We've had people in upsacle areas stop to get money out of an ATM robbed and shot in broad day light, setting sun and dark.
the list goes on....
No matter where you live these days there are punks who have guns and are ready to take someones life out of hand for whatever they think you might have or don't have.
Moving really isn't an option when violent crime knows no boundaries...
sytasyn_syn
You really think you would walk around with an M14 or a 10 round shotgun......wow
runawaygun762
10 round shotguns are dumb. My Mossberg holds a total of 18 on and in it. Much better.
Cobra6
I can't justify carrying a .380 ACP Ruger LCP or Kel-TEC P-3AT when there are several options available in 9mm Luger that are almost the same size - Taurus PT709 Slim, Ruger LC9, Kel-TEC PF-9.
All of these are single stack 9mm with adjustable sights, only slightly larger than a .380.
Joedaddy40
I have the Bodyguard 380 and it is a great little back up gun. It is well made and has all the functions of a full size pistol. The main reason i went with the smith instead of the Ruger is that it has the built in laser so you can point shoot, and if will most likely scare the shit out of that person, and the slide locks back after the last round has been fired, most of the other 380's don't do that. But i agree with most of you guys, i would not carry this as my primary weapon, i'll stick to my 229 in 40. But i am a firm believer of too things. One not everyone can handle a full size pistol with larger calibers. In fact i bought two of them because my wife doesn't feel comfortable with the heavier calibers. The second is that whether it's a 22 or a 50 the most important thing is shot placement. I can't tell you how many articles iv read were some gets hit with multiple shots even from a 45acp and not only didn't they go down but they lived to talk about it. If you hit someone center mass or in the head they going to be that threat is going to be in bad shape. Even if you think that the smaller rounds like the 380 won't kill which i think is wrong.. It will still give you enough time to get your self out of harms way!!! Love these topics guys, im new to the site and am glad i found a place were i can talk about stuff like this with other people who are in too these kind of things!!!
Ironmike15
Yep. This is a nice place. Nice to hear from you.
Saint J.M. Browning
Obligitory Jimi reference. I had to do it when I saw the subject of your post.
Welcome to the site Joe
luckybychoice
check thru the videos,theres a few videos of actual shootings taking place,most are not well executed center mass aimed shots,they are pray and spray.
Ishootdaily
Unconsciously count rounds and change mags with the last round in the chamber?
luckybychoice
and in the movies(count rounds)
Vaquero
Wheel guns and bottom feeders. Not so much on the repeating rifles for some reason. ?
Ironmike15
II use to carry a glock 27 most of the time when deep concealment was really important . It was smaller than a 1911 or BHP. But a lot of times it was just difficult. No matter where I put it. I found a colt mustang plus11 at a gun shop and had to have. I carried it constantly from then on unless concealment was not a factor or was easily acomplished. This little pistol is very accurate and at close ranges you just point and pull the trigger. After people shoot it they want one. Considerations about caliber seem to fade as they can immediately see the purpose of these small but capable pistols. Good news is that colt is making the colt pocket lite again.. oh happy day
Ishootdaily
I've been wanting one of those for a while, and also the Mustang....
Llama made a very nice 1911 styled 380, but everyone I've run across is shot out... Sad, I still think about picking one up when they cross the counter...
Ironmike15
You are so right about them. 4 years ago I saw one on gunbroker. It was very nice and. Engraved. I think it was like 350. I did not buy it but I should have.
LLE
It is a nifty little pistol--like an [exact] shrunken 1911, BUT it is very finicky about ammo--especially "defense" rounds. If you cannot do a lot of smithing or have it done-- don't buy it unless you are just collecting. How do I know?? Experience is the best teacher.
On the other hand, if you can find a Colt Mustang II at a reasonable price [almost impossible], buy it!! Why do I say that?? Again, [16 years] experience is a great teacher.
Anonymous
Glad to meet you: But the weapons, a few months ago a man about 65 and his neighbor had an argument about the 40 yr old letting his daughter go up his driveway on a skateboard. The 65 yr old man was retired and the 40 yr old starting over with new wife and 8 yr old daughter.. Both highly respected in the community and did anything for someone else. Anyway the 40 yr old says okay and takes his daughter across the street to playground. But she starts riding around the basketball ct and ruins the b-ball game too. The 65 yr old mans granson comes and asks granpa to tell the girls faher to make her skateboard on her own driveway or a different part of the court. Well after just arguing with the 40 yr old and got his way, he walked over, but remembered the 40 yr old guy said if you ever yell at my daughter I will kill you old man? So the 65 yr old guy says yes I will ask him, and thinks I better take my 22 concealed just in case. His wife says the guy isn't that bad, he was just angry. The 65 yr old guy says never the less I will just put it in my pants and cover it with my shirt, and he is licenced anyway. He walks over and explains that the boys cannot finish their game because your daughter keeps running into their court. The 40 yr old says you just do not like me or my daughter. The 65 yr old says that is not true and I am threw arguing and turns to leave. the 40 yr old grabs the 65yr olds arm and turns him back to face to face and the 65 yr olds shirt blows up and out pops the handle of his 22lr, for a moment. The 40 yr old guy lounges for it and says loud how dare you bring a gun to a kids playground? before the 65 yr old guy can say anything, the 40 yr old trys to grab the Gun and they struggle for 10 seconds and a shot rings out and the 40 yr old gets a 22lr in the heart. Dies before he hit the ground. The police know the 65 yr old and no threat ever and legal, but put him in front of judge who suspends the guys licence to carry and the investigation begins, and judge adds for his own safety he is not to go home untill fault has been found. All neighbors liked the 40 yr old best and started to trash the older mans house and the dead guys wife went on the news asking for vigilante justice etc. they even torched the 65 yr old guys house. No court yet and looks like an accident but 65 yr old can never carry or even go back to sell his house or belongings. Judge ordered him residence out of state of Florida. He cannot see his grankids unless they come to him etc. Everybody loses. a 22lr one shot to the heart with struggle, so any cal. will kill you. If you cannot hit a target 20 feet away with any gun, you should not have one then. This happened within 2 miles of my home and the playground was where my grankids used to play. I carry anywhere I want, because that is why I wanted a licence, and granted one, and investigated and so forth. I could kill anyone with my hands and maybe a finger. But a lot of people lose their heads and even just the knowledge of carrying is enough to give them stability and enough guts to cross the street on a dark night. I know a lot of police and sherriffs and FBI and CIA and they all think like I do. the 40yr old should not have tried to take the 65 yr old mans gun away and paid the price for it. But everybody loses either way. I personally shot a Gook at 60 yards and hit his shoulder and killed him instantly from the impact of the 45. I shot him about 30 more times to make sure he and his friends understood the meaning behind it. So cal. does count in war, but not so sure in 2' to 5' encounters. Get my drift. JLC
Ishootdaily
Every now and then one will pop up in the paper or at the counter at the range. Mostly when retired Police move to Florida and live out their latter years and they are left to windows and kids that do not want or like guns.
You also see them now and then in Shops for sale priced around $600.00 - $800.0 for clean ones.
Vaquero
Glad to see you are still among us.
MikeDog
I just bought a SCCY model CPX-1. It is a 9x19 with a 10+1 shot capacity. The CPX-1 is the same size as a compact .380 but it is a 9mm.
MattyTheJet
The .380 definitely has it's place, my girlfriend loves the one she carries, lmao.
daisycutter
The arguments against the .380 are bullshit.
"(fired from 5') Hornady .380 ACP 90-gr. Critical Defense averaged 6.75" in wet pack. This should be about 10.12" in 10% ballistic gelatin."
"Penetration was extremely consistent as well. With the .380, the greatest variation in penetration depths was a surprisingly small 1/10"!"
Proofs in the pudding. Charts and graphs showing the revered and idolized 9MM to the the epitome of carry carts are flat out biased. The little ol' .380 will get the job done.
coppertop
It may not be the best, I sure don't want to get shot with it. My guess is that most anyone else wouldn't ether. You might have the best .45 ever made, but if I put my little .380 in you first , I win. Carry what you can shoot well. In close, my ppk/s is just as accurate as my 1911. All you can do is do the best with what you got.
daisycutter
is all true but I also should have pointed out that 9MM was a pitiful POS, over penetration and closed wound channel, until projectile engineering took it into the 20th century.
At the same time the .380 grew up as well.
Copper, you're 100% right. The 1st person to put one into the 10 ring wins whether it's
a .22 short (small 10 ring) or a 500 S&W (large 10 ring) LOL.
greg az
Couple two three years here you'd think i would have seen it..
and how cool it is.. first off how did we lose, and how do we get "dentalninja" to come back.. This boy cracks me up.. first off he's got good thoughts (as the vast majority of these are) but how can beat that avatar, and name.. Dentalninja you rock bro.. come back please..
Course on the other hand we have "anonymous".. Got to quote this guy.. here goes..
"I could kill anyone with my hands and maybe a finger" "I personally shot a Gook at 60 yards and hit his shoulder and killed him instantly from the impact of the 45. I shot him about 30 more times to make sure he and his friends understood the meaning behind it.
Hmmm.. guess we know why he's anonymous.. Love me some old threads
ohioshooter
not thing wrong with a 380 it all in shot placement and to small of a gun is better then no gun ,and after all its what you like please yourself and fuck keepin up with the jones