Forums / Gun Discussion / AR rifles

4 years 31 weeks ago, 8:29 PM

CharlesW

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AR rifles

I've never shot an AR rifle.
I like the magazine fed idea.
I'm thinking on a new rifle but
that is a bunch of money to
lay out. I've been checking balistics
and the 223 isn't all that good.
My 30-30 is close to 223 and 3
times the bullet.
243 is looking better.
270 is good but does anyone
make an AR in 270?
308 is out of the question. My
disability wont allow the recoil.

Are you through laughing ? lol
I know I'm way behind times.
I'm not too interested in all the
bells and whistles, I do very
well with iron sights.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 9:25 PM

ecaman

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If you'd like a magazine fed rifle and don't want the expense of an AR type, why not look into an AK47 or an SKS? The 7.62x39 is almost the ballistic equivalent of a .30-30, but you get the magazine fed capability, especially from an AK47. Used ones are available all over the place, and priced very moderately. My brother in law got a used AK47 about a year ago, and loves it.

Don't expect the same accuracy as from many, if not most AR's. Some AR's are phenominally accurate, which can't be said of any AK47 or SKS that I've ever seen. However, you can be sure of "minute of deer vitals" or "minute of Zombie"!

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. (Mark Twain).
4 years 31 weeks ago, 9:32 PM

CharlesW

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within inches at 200 yards ?
I'm going to have to research this some more

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 9:47 PM

CharlesW

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ecaman I found the 762X39 to be 123 gr
and 154 gr and just over 2100 fps.
That makes it a fair bullet for combat
IMHO.
A 223 at 62 gr is a very flat shooting
bullet but little stopping power.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 10:02 PM

ecaman

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Figure maybe 3" at 100 yards. That's what I used to get from SKS's, and about what my brother in law says he gets from his AK47.

Right now, at 71 and after being insulin dependent diabetic since 1982, I'm damn lucky to even see the target at 100 yards! This past Saturday I took my Charter Bulldog .44 Special out to the BLM land beyond our city landfill, and the best I could do was about 3 1/2" at 15 yards with Winchester 200 gr Silvertips, and 5 1/2" with some reloaded 240 gr SWC's. All shooting was double action. Oh well, that's a chest full for anybody who's a threat, and that's what I bought the Bulldog for anyway.

Like every old guy, I can say, "Boy, I used to shoot the hairs off a gnat's ass", but whatever we used to do doesn't count for shit now.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. (Mark Twain).
4 years 31 weeks ago, 12:34 AM

CharlesW

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I'm 63 with an artificial shoulder and
a 8 in steel plate in my chest.
I might have to let them get a little
closer than I used to is why I want
a bigger bullet I guess.
That's why I can't take the recoil
of a 308 or 30-06 any more.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 4:34 AM

Nitris

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CW where were you looking for Ballistics, while 223 is not recommended for large kills, you can hunt deer with them in the right grain. I have several as well as many different grains of ammo from 40 gr to 80 gr.

http://www.hornady.com/images/ballistics/ballistics_charts.pdf

Ron Paul 2012 III
4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:48 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

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AR

The AR platform is a great gun, regardless of caliber. There are several proven 'upgrades' beyond the .223/5.56 cartridge.

The 6.8mm SPC gives you a 110gr pill at over 2500fps from a 16" barrel; factory loads from SSA, Sellier and Bellot, Hornady and Remington....the 6.5 Grendel is a long-range accuracy winner, with pills from 90-120gr and a better supersonic range than the .308.

As for recoil, there are some great low-recoil loads for the the .308 (110gr Hornady TAP), and I can't imagine how a .270 (.30-06 case length and gobs of powder) is any better than a standard .308.

The 6x45mm is another up and comer in the standard AR. With these rounds available, the only advantage to the 7.62x39 is relatively inexpensive ammo.

The .308-platform ARs are expensive, and many are picky; I'd stay with the standard sized AR and shop for the cartridge that does what you want it to....better parts availability and lower price than the .243/.308 AR-pattern rifles.

A 16" 6.8 or 20" 6.5 would be my next AR purchase if things weren't so tight.

4 years 31 weeks ago, 8:05 AM

samD

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They make a .243 in an AR Platform. That is a great cal. The ballistics are outstanding, recoil moderate to none. Lots of hitting power, just a tad more expensive to shoot. But if you reload.
I will look for those that manufacture and post. need to find them!

samD

Impact Guns: http://www.impactguns.com/store/LR-243.html

DPMS AR-15 .243, 20 Inch Heavy Barrel, 19rd Mags

Manufacturer: DPMS
Manufacturer Item #: LR-243
Impact Item #: 884451000280

(Scope not included)
Caliber: 243 Cal. Winchester
Barrel: 20 Inch 416 Stainless Steel Heavy Barrel
Length: 39.6"
Weight: Approx. 10.65 lbs.
Stock: Black Zytel Composition A2 Buttstock
Sights: Scope only (not included).
Capacity: 19 Rd Mags
Features: Flat Top Receiver, Push Pin, Pivot Pin, Aluminum Free Float Handguard Action: Semi Auto
Operation: Gas
Method of Locking: Rotating Bolt
Handguard: Aluminum Free Float Tube
Upper & lower receivers are hard coat anodized per Mil-A 8625A & Teflon Coated Black
Each Rifle comes with 2 - 19 round steel magazines, 1-Nylon Web Sling, and 1-Cleaning Kit, Scope not Included

4 years 31 weeks ago, 7:58 PM

CharlesW

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Everything just got put on hold as far
as a new gun. I blew the engine on my
gardon tractor this morning. Got to do some
mowing and soon.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 9:09 AM

luckybychoice

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i've shot

about a dozen deer with the .223 in a Mini-14,never had one get back up either,but that was in Wisconsin where the .223 was a legal round for deer hunting,here in MN it is not legal for deer hunting,but i also hunt in a shotgun only zone now anyway.So i would suggest that if it is a legal round to hunt deer with in your state,you could take deer with it,and recoil would be minimal.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 31 weeks ago, 9:58 AM

Nitris

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People don't realize the deadly rounds you can get in 223. Some 223 teflon tip bullets I would take to kill even a bear.

Ron Paul 2012 III
4 years 31 weeks ago, 3:54 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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huh?

Man I hope you're kidding Nitris

4 years 31 weeks ago, 4:03 PM

Nitris

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Huuuuuumm TXLUCKYGUY have you investigated much 223?
Do you not realize our military uses 223 to kill people...............and it works. There are many rounds used for various reason.

Next what is the deadiest round known to man?...............hint it's the .22

Ron Paul 2012 III
4 years 31 weeks ago, 4:31 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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yes

and yes. Investigating shootings is part of my job, and I've seen gobs of data and firsthand evidence on the .223 and other cartridges, on humans and other targets. I test various bullets, Most often the .223/.40/12ga every six weeks or so.

1. The .223, even in it's deepest-penetrating loads, is grossly inadequate for any species of North American bear...esp to 'stop' them. Bear muscle tissue is often twice as dense as human tissue, so almost any .223 bullet would not penetrate adequate to reach the vitals of a bear. I've seen skulls of dressed bears where a 150gr .30-30 literally failed to penetrate, so the .223 would do no better.

2. The addition of Teflon to any bullet, .223 or otherwsie, does not enhance it's penetration, performance, or lethality.

3. .223/5.56, when properly loaded and used within it's intended velocity envelope (ie, proper barrel length and twist for the load) does work well on unobstructed human targets. That performance does not translate to it's efficient use on any sort of dangerous game. I've seen footage of natives killing polar bear with .223, and even spears, but that doesn't make it the right (or even adequate) tool for the job. An associate killed a B&C record black bear with a .41 Mag handgun a while back (stand over bait, NC) but he admits the bear did not drop with the speed he'd hope for if he was on foot and in range.

'Deadliest' (ie your .22) doesn't mean the cartridge or bullet will do the job and stop your opponent with any regularity of predictability. 'Killing' a person or other mammal is simple---single cell organisms excel at it--but stopping them from eating you, blowing up your convoy, or robbing you is another sort of affair entirely.

4 years 31 weeks ago, 4:47 PM

Nitris

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here's the thing TX, I have just about every kind of ammo from 22 to 50 cal. Would I take a 223 to hunt bear, when a .50 cal would most likely do the best job...........no. Will a 223 kill a bear....yes. Head shots are your best bet.

Ron Paul 2012 III
4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:01 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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ears

Yup I'm a big fan of headshots in general. The natives on the footage I mentioned (Inuit?) were using a Ruger Mini-14 (unknown ammo) and ran in to do a near-contact shot to the polar bear's ear area while their associates jabbed at Mr. Bear with spears.

I could distinctly heard a loud metallic clanging in the video, and I am convinced it was the huge brass balls of the gents out on the ice with that bear. (Bears frighten me a wee bit, almost as much as zombies).

Some of the heavier all-copper bullets in .223 really get the caliber into adequate-penetration territory. I shot a truck door with CorBon's 62gr solid copper HP and the performance really impressed me. Now if it were only less than 2 bucks a round haha. I currently issue Federal's 62gr Bonded Tactical to my guys for anti-vehicle use, but if I can get the Barnes/CorBon/Black Hills or other solid copper HP on the bid list I'll most likely do that. There's also a 70gr all-copper load, the maker escapes me, but the barrier performance numbers on paper was really great.

4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:04 PM

zx12rmike

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My cousin has a 6.8 SPC in AR platform and went pig hunting this last weekend. I am trying to get him to go shooting with us one of these days. I want to get my hands on that SPC.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:17 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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6.8

I've only run one out to 100yds, and only a few times (Bushmaster, LWRC and a parts gun).

The recoil was definitely more than the .223 to me, but otherwise I'm sold on the caliber for social use and game up to 200lbs or so.

Tons of great, well-tested rounds available. I'm trying to buy a local 6.8 upper for my AR but things like bills and taxes keep getting in the way.

4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:19 PM

zx12rmike

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TLG, just be glad

TLG, just be glad Schwartzenspendingyourtaxmoneylikewater isn't your governor

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:32 PM

traderjac

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You cant go wrong with a SKS...

If a man can make you mad just by talking, then he is far brighter than you.
4 years 31 weeks ago, 3:11 AM

Nitris

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TX....do you mean the Black Hills Ammunition 223 Remington 75 Grain Match Hollow Point? it's a badass round.

traderjac I have several sks's never shoot them, AK's are better for any situation that a sks roll would play. SKS only have a slight advantage in distance, less than 50 yards over the ak. Now an AK in 223 or 5.45x39 have the advantage in distance.

Ron Paul 2012 III
4 years 31 weeks ago, 6:25 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

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nah

Nah the BH and Hornady 75gr stuff is great (I issue the 5.56mm TAP T2 75gr here), but it uses a fairly standard lead and copper JHP bullet. It's barrier performance is moderate at best, but on tissue it's a really devastating load and one of the few expanding .223 loads that penetrate deeper than 8-10".

The solid copper (homogenous) bullets from Barnes and couple of others are used in loads from BH, Federal, CorBon, and some other makers. Since copper is lighter than lead, the solid copper bullets generally top out a little lighter than standard bullets (165 and 185 for .45acp, 140 and 155 for .40/10mm, etc.). Barnes' 70gr .223 TAC-X, with 1:8 twist or faster is the one I was thinking of.

Hornady's new GMX bullet series would also be a great one if they'd adapt it to .223, say in the 60-68gr weight range.

4 years 30 weeks ago, 6:06 PM

runawaygun762

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Application will determine the best caliber for you. The AR in 223 is a great defensive or offensive round against people, especially as a civilian where you can choose your bullet. I would put the lethality of the 55 gr Hornady V-Max, 55 gr Extreme Shock frangible, or the 55 gr Winchester silvertip up against any AK round you'll find. The 223 does not have the same penetration, but the sheer amount of tissue damage done when one of these "mini grenades" fragments in the body is impressive. Of course, this does assume, as TX already said, an unobstructed hit. The infamous Miami shootout between the FBI and two bank robbers, Platt and Matix, showed how easily auto body metal and glass can stop or deflect the 223.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 30 weeks ago, 7:43 PM

CharlesW

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mabe Zombies later

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 30 weeks ago, 7:53 PM

CharlesW

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I had an M14 in the army (Yuk)
I have friends with M1 Garands
which I've fired several times.
I even had a 7.7 Jap at one time.
Hated that palm safety.
right now all I have is a 22LR and
a 30-30 and I just thought I might
get something else but have never
had a magazine fed before.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 30 weeks ago, 7:36 PM

Vaquero

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I've only shot 1 .270, Rem. 700BDL
The WORST recoil I have ever felt.
I don't know why, 30-06, 7mm Mag, 300 Win.
Just didn't kick as much. I've never wanted a .270
because of 3 shots.
My 2 cents.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 30 weeks ago, 4:18 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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.30-30

Charles,

If you haven't had a chance, try some of the newer .30-30 loads---they really maximize the calibers. Hornady's LeveRevolution, Winchester's 150gr Ballistic Silvertip, and some of the hot stuff from Buffalo Bore.

Also it's nothing new but Remington's saboted 55gr gr JSP Accelerator's are flat-shooting, very low recoil, and will make el coyote look like he swallowed a grenade.

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