Forums / Gun Discussion / Blackthorn???

2 years 50 weeks ago, 2:32 PM

ACE

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Blackthorn???

Got something I know nothing about, but want to know if any of ya'll do. I have a customer that came in today that's built an AR15 from a kit, purchased from a company called Blackthorn out of maybe Minnesota, (the customer thinks??) He has already returned the upper receiver twice, and is now on #3, (which is doing the same as the first 2) after about 140-150 rounds, the casing completely jams, and he has to use a ramrod to beat it out from the muzzle. On the case that jams, the "Extractor Groove", (where the claw grabs it), is broken. The force of the "extracting action" snaps it almost completely off. He has used several different brands of ammunition. None of it is the high quality ammo, and not all of it is reloads either. Any suggestions?? And more of the reason for this, Anyone heard anything about "Blackthorn"??

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 2:54 PM

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Ace..

Betting you know this.early M16's had an issue that wasn't corrected till they went with chrome lined barrels.. If i remember the story right Kennedys "whizz" kids to include Bob McNamara got involved with Eugene's design, and overrode the military types on this part of the design.. Cost issue would be the best bet as to why..

Those unlined bbls are still out there.. any chance that could be the issue.. are you seeing anything that looks like seizing at the barrels breach..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
2 years 50 weeks ago, 4:19 PM

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Ace, is he shooting

steel case ammo? I have had the same thing happen with both my cheap century (if you call $800 cheap..lol) and my RRA heavy bbl, both chrome lined. I was shooting that Russian steel case shit and switched to brass and it jammed up tighter than a ducks ass, we talked about this in another thread, but the general consensus is that the anti rust coating on the steel case melts into a sticky blob in the chamber. I don't know if that is his problem or not, I would think the MFG would have some insight by BBL three....

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2 years 43 weeks ago, 6:42 PM

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meritaa wrote:
Hello
I saw your email address today during my search in google and it was so good to me.u know that i am interested to be a friend first.i also believe that coming to you will be a probability of meeting that very love that has been lacking in my entire life. please i will like you to contact me direct to my e-mail address, (merit_sow@yahoo.com) i dont know the posebility of remaing in forum for long time,i will give you a full introduction of my self with my pictures ok. i will be waiting for your mail to my e-mail adsdress(merit_sow@yahoo.com) as you know
there is no age,race,colour n religion bar when it comes to true love,
cares merit.

I don't think my wife would be too cool with whatever you are proposing.

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 6:26 PM

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be my 1st suggestion.
I'll assume the customer scrubbed the new receiver before shooting. If they handload that there is no contaminant on the ammo. If basic housekeeping is okay they may try an experiment, your customer could try jeweler's rouge on the chamber.
It's bizarre that one customer can have 3 "bad" receivers one after the other.

Checking with a gunsmith is the safe way to go when a gun does not do what it is supposed to do. JMHO
Please post a follow-up, I'm curious what the prob turns out to be.

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 6:31 PM

HampsterW

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Ace is a

gunsmith, which makes this all the more perplexing.

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 6:39 PM

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dumb look on his face LOL!
I'd like to have a look at the chamber, it would be my guess it is either that or the ammo cases.

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 12:28 AM

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ACE

http://www.hybrid.ualr.edu/satu/headspace.html

when he assembled the kit, did he set the head space correctly with the use of go/no go gauge?

sounds like it could be out of time...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 12:43 AM

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ACE, also wondering

Is he making use of this Bolt in the rifle also from Blackthorn?

If so, and if you have a regular bolt and carrier that you could throw into it and test it to see if it is actually fouling because of the Ringless Bolt?

AR ringless bolt substitution
$65.00
Ordering this item results in our substituting a "Ringless" bolt for the standard bolt in a CARBINE length kit. (8.5", 10.25", 11.5", 14.5" or 16" barreled kit) Ordering this item will NOT result in us sending you a bolt, it is a SUBSTITUTION for a standard bolt in a PARTS KIT, 16" or less in length.

Blackthorne's new "Ringless" bolt design is a breakthrough in AR development. The gas rings on a standard AR bolt have always been the weak link in the design. These rings are prone to breakage, wear, carbon fouling, and can line up and cause malfunction. Our new design cures all these ills.

Based on the proven designs of the AK47, FAL and G36 rifles, we have done away with the gas rings on the bolt and replaced them with precision ground ( to within .0003", thats 3/10th of one thousandths of an inch) mating surfaces, similar to the mating surfaces found on the above named rifle designs. This results in a much more reliable and stronger bolt. The mating surfaces are grooved for efficient carbon removal and easy cleaning.

THIS ITEM IS NOT A STAND ALONE ITEM. YOU MUST ORDER THIS IN ADDITION TO A CARBINE LENGTH PARTS KIT. DO NOT ORDER THIS ITEM FOR USE IN A KIT WITH A BARREL LONGER THAN 16"

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 1:05 PM

Reaper308

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extractor

it could be a $5 fix. I would try this first before the other options. If it doesn't help, I would just throw in a whole new bolt if head space checks out.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20e...

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 6:45 PM

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2 thoughts, check the

2 thoughts, check the headspacing and I agree with Reaper, could just be an extractor problem.

2 years 50 weeks ago, 9:48 PM

daisycutter

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Ace,

Would you ask your customer to scrub the chamber after the first 75-100 rds. Fire out another 75-100 rds. and so on ?
Initially I thought polishing the chamber could cure the prob, Maybe it would, but scrub the chamber as I suggested stands a good chance of keeping shooter on the firing line longer w/o spending much time or $$ assuming it's residue fouling.
Taking a 5 minute gun cleaning break is worth a try and can't do any harm.

By your description of the cartridge case it sounds like the extractor is very healthy.

Somewhere there is an engineer who has worked through this prob... :<)

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 10:54 PM

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daisycutter wrote:
By your description of the cartridge case it sounds like the extractor is very healthy.

Yeah, just about ripping the ass off the case pretty much left me with the same thought. :-)

One of the reasons I leaned towards head spacing, throwing off the timing. Primer hit, ignites, powder burns, case throat expands, bullet heads down barrel and case has not had enough time to shrink back.

There was a guy shooting a AR10 SASS up at WAC a couple of weeks ago. He had taken his rifle back to the person who built it from a kit. He would get 10 - 30 rounds out of it and a case would jamb in so tight that he was using a standard screw driver to wedge in between the face of the carrier and the ejection port and lever the carrier back until it would release the case.

I sent him up to Jerry Cole a gun smith down here. He threw a go.no go in the chamber and found it was off, reset it correctly and the rifle ran like a fine tuned machine after that.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 1:48 AM

daisycutter

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A rifle with incorrect headspace set too short will not fully chamber the round. One set too long will burst the cartridge case.
Interesting subject Ace gave us to discuss :<)

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 3:06 AM

Ishootdaily

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and the bolt face also extractor.

Couple of the guys mentioned running a reamer in the chamber. but....

eh...

It is a kit gun that he put together from scratch, sooooo...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 4:01 AM

Ishootdaily

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Jerry must have had to ream the chamber on that 308.

Interesting, maybe, wrong more than likely. unless this chamber is flubbered.

I was reading something interesting about extractor tension and how heavy tension can be just as much an issue as not enough tension.

Way this guy explained it was that the extractor spring heats up and loosens up (actually looses strength) and allows the extractor to bounce around the case rim but hooks enough to gouge the softer brass.

Dirty chamber is the number one suggestion and staying away from Wolf is a top one also. Seems the new Poly coating cooks off in the chamber just like the lacquer but ends up being Black and like a Poly Gun Finish cooked on the chamber walls. It doesn't happen with every firearm, but those it happens in it gets nasty from what I've read.

New Wolf Polymer Coated 223...
Nice.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 9:01 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Could be stupid

but I'll throw it out there anyway. Is he shooting 5.56 in a .223 only? There are still some people that think they are the same.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 50 weeks ago, 9:53 AM

daisycutter

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read:

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 8:46 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Daisycutter

Good read. Which makes me wonder about this situation. Especially given some of the info from their site:

Quote:
Barrel info
Blackthorne purchases the barrels in our kits from Wilson and Mossberg. Again, we simply cannot tell the difference in manufacturers so we cannot honor requests for specific manufacturers. Our barrels are made from chrome-moly 4140 steel, except our Stainless steel barrels, these are made from 416R re-sulpherized gun quality stainless steel. We do not normally chrome line our barrels because this degrades accuracy and, because of advances in the quality of ammunition, is not really needed for corrosion resistance for most people. With this said, we do offer our barrels chrome lined on special order. Chrome lined barrels are $50.00 extra. This should not be necessary unless you operate in or around salt water and have an aversion to cleaning your firearm. If you require more corrosion resistance than normal, get a stainless barrel. Chrome lined barrels are ordered by using the item # AR-Chrome.

Hmm. No chrome lined. This was brought up earlier. My guess: this guy didn't spend the extra $50 for it. Especially when they practically talk you out of it.

Quote:
Are Blackthorne Products uppers and complete kits headspaced?
Yes, all barrels, uppers, and kits are headspaced to MIL-SPEC. Please note that we can only guarantee correct headspace on customer supplied bolts if the bolts are BRAND NEW, MIL SPEC. Used or non-mil spec bolts may not headspace correctly and we do NOT recommend using anything other than BRAND NEW, MIL SPEC bolts. All uppers should be checked for headspace before firing. All barrels are gauged to a mil spec headspace dimension of 1.4636" to 1.4736". We do not guarantee any specific headspace dimension, only that it is within the mil spec of 1.4636" to 1.4736"

OK, they say MIL-SPEC, which to me would suggest a NATO chamber. Then the specify to ensure to match with a MIL-SPEC bolt. Another thing to check.

Quote:
What ammo should I use?
Selecting the proper ammo is extremely important! The grand majority of all malfunctions are directly related to ammo and/or magazine. We recommend (together with every other firearms manufacturer that we are aware of) that you shoot SAAMI spec ammo only! Shooting surplus, reloaded, steel cased, or any non-SAAMI spec ammo will not only cause malfunctions but is dangerous! DO NOT SHOOT RELOADED/REMANUFACTURED AMMUNITION OR SURPLUS AMMUNITION AT ANY TIME OR FOR ANY REASON!!! DOING SO VOIDS ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES!!! Hard primers (especially on WOLF and other Russian ammo), OAL issues (on reloads), pressure issues (on surplus and WOLF ammo) etc. are common on reloaded and non-SAAMI spec ammo. Please, for your sake, shoot new, SAAMI spec ammo only!

Kind of what I was getting at. SAAMI would be .223. SAAMI doesn't define the standards for NATO. That's the way I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong. But it sounds like the upper is very intolerant on ammo diversity.

Hope this helps.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:08 PM

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this is not good!

are common on reloaded and non-SAAMI spec ammo. Please, for your sake, shoot new, SAAMI spec ammo only! '' to slam NATO spec ammo is crap saami is spec is way off ,chamber design and pressure etc is the why ....so watch out for poorly made parts etc ...

2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:11 PM

daisycutter

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Huh?

`

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:44 PM

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i'm pretty sure what you meant was lost in the translation somewhere,these jokers are just having a good time.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
2 years 43 weeks ago, 8:53 PM

cz7

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ammo

nato spec vs. saami spec ???go with the nato ! specs of the chamber design is a can of worms go with nato again.. saami is of 223 which is different caliber and different chamber -fire 556 ammo in a 223 chamber WILL spike the pressure to troubles ....better way to this is ,your face is ugly but its the only face you have !

2 years 43 weeks ago, 9:15 PM

HampsterW

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cz7, where are from?

cz7 wrote:
nato spec vs. saami spec ???go with the nato ! specs of the chamber design is a can of worms go with nato again.. saami is of 223 which is different caliber and different chamber -fire 556 ammo in a 223 chamber WILL spike the pressure to troubles ....better way to this is ,your face is ugly but its the only face you have !

That would help us, if you are not a native north American then say so and we will give you a pass......IMO loading 5.56 NATO exclusively when one might have a rifle chambered in .223 ONLY is bad advise, unless "YOU" are the one behind the trigger.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:12 PM

HampsterW

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Huh?

another incoherent.......

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:15 PM

daisycutter

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Betcha he votes for

in the general election! seems like that kind LOL,

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:17 PM

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nimrod

welcome back

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:22 PM

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kin to badgirl?

kin to badgirl?

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:29 PM

luckybychoice

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it's all good

Photobucket

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:41 PM

Vaquero

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I'm much too slow

for that to be a concern.

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:43 PM

daisycutter

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faster and a little "funny" !

iyaoyas
2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:49 PM

Vaquero

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I aint "that" slow

damn!

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2 years 46 weeks ago, 1:00 PM

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2 years 50 weeks ago, 7:32 PM

HampsterW

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LOL!!!!

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 50 weeks ago, 8:45 PM

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Guess you guys have us geezers entertained or something...

By the by dudes, and dudettes.. did ya notice that the company did NOT chrome line the bbls.. did ya notice that GREG AZ non AR fanatic, but of course great all around pal and possible male model said from the FIRST post... duh (actually sounds like me) ah could it be an issue of non chrome lined barrel,,,,

Just saying...

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
2 years 50 weeks ago, 8:59 PM

Vaquero

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Later guys

That 4 am start has caught up to me.
Pard, I don't know what the hell yer talking about but it sounds like you are right. ?
I don't know if you saw the PM from yesterday, but you got one.
I may never get to fire the single six again, TBH has claimed it.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
2 years 50 weeks ago, 9:06 PM

greg az

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just did lee..

back at ya if i can catch you before your off..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
2 years 49 weeks ago, 9:57 AM

ACE

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Here we gooooo!!

All My customer brought to me the day he came in, was a .223 cartridge that the extractor groove was ripped/bent, where the extractor claw attempted to remove it. All of your points are GREAT!! They were what I was looking for, (Even LBC's "Einstein" poster stated some good words to live by!!) to go over with My customer who, as I said, has not brought the firearm in for me to do a "process of elimination" look-over. I called him, and was all for him coming in, with his Blackthorn kit gun, and go over all of ya'lls recommendations and ideas, OR 2 @ least give him website add's he could look up on his own, but 1. He doesnt have internet access, and 2. Has No clue as to when, or if he'll make it in. Soooooo, even if he doesnt come back up to the shop, or never has internet access, I was able, as always, to learn a little something from My Gunslot Guys!! Cause I really didnt know Einstein's theory of being able to Fuck yourself in that way, but I WILL be using that saying again!! If I do finally get to see this kit AR, I will definitely let ya'll know what my findings are, and Thank You again 4 the helpful ideas!! If anyone wants to add to, or gets anymore specs on this, just PM me!! :~)

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2 years 49 weeks ago, 10:52 AM

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not allowed to troubleshoot the prob. Whatever the root cause I still suspect chamber fouling
for the reason the cart does not extract.

iyaoyas
2 years 49 weeks ago, 7:35 PM

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GOOOOOO!

Still not solved, my customer has this same problem now, in the .308 platform from Blackborne claims the bolt and receiver are well lubed with different stuff from light oil to grease with all types of diffrent ammo and head space checks good! I'm thinking chamber rebore! Having the same problem on a Remington 740- .06 Any thoughts? Or just need the chromed barell Otherwise have to stick with Einstein theory how could you go wrong!

AKAI
2 years 49 weeks ago, 10:08 PM

Reaper308

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they also go by Hesse / Vulcan. Just do a search on them.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3037...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/302078_.html

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=41761

http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/hessevulcanblackthorne-arms-dum...

http://bananafufu.blogspot.com/2010/02/blackthorne-products-sucks-and-th...

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
2 years 49 weeks ago, 11:25 PM

Ishootdaily

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Pretty much a Chameleon business.. scary propitiation.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 48 weeks ago, 4:39 AM

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Yeah Blackthorn has a bad rep for builds, having said that if your client is still having hang issues after 150 or so rounds you might want to check the neck (chamber area) of the barrel. It may need sized correctly. Another thing you might want to check, make sure he's not firing 5.56 x 45 out of a 223 barrel.

Ron Paul 2012 III
2 years 48 weeks ago, 5:03 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Blackthorn issue

From what I've read on these, I believe it with the Blackthorn (admittedly, I have no personal experience though), but the Rem 740 surprises me. Same issue, broke extractor, stuck case? I have a Rem 750 (descendent of the 740) and it comes with a chamber brush. And I heard of complaints about bad feeds, bad extraction, etc. And the resolution always seems to be that these aren't battle rifles and you have to clean the chamber after so many rounds.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon

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