Discussion on the U S Civil War
end of discussion.
it isn't over yet
Called by many in the south, including some of my relatives, the War of Northern Aggression. When I was growing up in north Texas in the 1940's & 50's, there was still quite a bit of active resentment. It still exists in some areas of the south, even now.
Being a child of the south (do we ever forget things heard and widely accepted in childhood?), I still hate it that the south lost, even though even as a child I knew that slavery was a horrible thing.
Logic and education should bring enlightenment. Perhaps someday.
i just was messing with CW but he probably was off picking cotton now that all his slaves are gone,lawd have mercy.
Is the Civil War was not solely about slavery, it was more about States rights, which slavery was a part of. Now don't misunderstand I am not condoing slavery, it is and was a dark part of the hstory of this great nation.
The invention of machinery was replacing slaves
What the war was really about was politics.
The only people who owned slaves were the large
plantation owners who were the same people who
controlled politics at that time.
States rights were brought in when Congress was
talking about not allowing a slave owner to
transport his own slaves to lands further west. They
called foul. My property, I do with it as I please.
The civil war was a powder keg 40 years before a shot was fired.
The average dirt farmer in the south didn't care, he
was too poor to have slaves so he had 14 kids.
Might have taken 2 or 3 wives because they died
in child birth but that's how the family farms were run.
What caused the battle of Fort Sumner which started
the war was The confederates couldn't allow a Union
Fort to be in the middle of Charleston harbor so they
demanded it be evacuated. (There was only a maintenance
crew there anyway) Mr Lincoln decided to fully man the
fort and had 6 ships of troops and arms in route to Charleston.
The Confederates got wind of this and decided to blow it
up before they got there.
So Mr Lincoln broke his word after saying he wouldn't send
Gee how long can it get LOL
slavery was just an excuse more than anything.
The war started in 1861
Slavery was introduced in 1863
HUMMMMM war was fought 2 years before
slavery was brought up?
Lucky said the North Won, discussion over lol
I guess that's true for a lot of people.
My interest was born when I did some genealogy
and found how much my ancestors were involved
in the war. Some as soldiers ( Confederate) and
some as victums of the war. Farms burned, livestock
stolen and some murdered.
Abe Lincoln: Great American President or War Criminal?
It has long been an amazement to me that Abe Lincoln has been tauted one of the greated presidents of all time. Honest Abe was not really all that honest, after all he was a lawyer and a politician... Many fallacies exist about this man and the following article explains a few important things about the criminal acts that he was even sent to trial for after the war. Of course being president he was not really punished for anything because he was above the law...
It is sad how history is taught in the light most favorable and not based on reality.
"Lincoln had made unscrupulous war upon the Southern people in an attempt to suppress their freedom. But he had also, in so doing, violated the Constitution of the United States and caused great suffering to the citizens of the US. After mature consideration, Lincoln was turned over to the authorities of the US to be prosecuted in their courts. Ironically, the Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens, an old friend of Lincoln, volunteered for his defense team.
The list of indictments was long:
-Violation of the Constitution and his oath of office by invading and waging war against states that had legally and democratically withdrawn their consent from his government, inaugurating one of the cruelest wars in recent history.
-Subverting the duly constituted governments of states that had not left the Union, thereby subverting their constitution right to "republican form of government."
-Raising troops without the approval of Congress and expending funds without appropriation.
-Suspending the writ of habeas corpus and interfering with the press without due process, imprisoning thousands of citizens without charge or trial, and closing courts by military force where no hostilities were occurring.
-Corrupting the currency by manipulations and paper swindles unheard of in previous US history.
-Fraud and corruption by appointees and contractors with his knowledge and connivance.
-Continuing the war by raising ever-larger bodies of troops by conscription and hiring of foreign mercenaries and refusing to negotiate in good faith for an end to hostilities.
-Confiscation of millions of dollars of property by his agents in the South, especially cotton, without legal proceedings.
-Waging war against women and children and civilian property as the matter of policy (rather than as unavoidably incident to combat). (General Sherman and others were called to testify as to their operations and the source of their orders.)
-Two questions widely discussed at the time could not be formulated into systematic charges against Lincoln. One was the huge number of deaths among the black population in the South as a result of forcible dislocation by "Union" forces. No accurate account was ever achieved, but the numbers ran into several hundred thousand persons who had died of disease, starvation, and exposure on the roads or in the army camps.
The second unpursued charge had to do with the deliberate starvation and murder of Confederate prisoners. When Lincoln was captured, the guards fled the camps where these prisoners had been confined. Many Northern citizens were willing to testify to the terrible conditions in the camps – exposure and starvation where food and medicine were readily available. One of the strongest impulses for the restoration of good feelings between the former compatriots of the North and South was the Christian aid and comfort given by many Northerners for the relief of these prisoners.
These atrocities could not be directly charged to Lincoln, though they were pursued against a number of lesser officers. Lincoln was charged with contributing to numerous deaths by being the first civilized authority to declare medicine a contraband of war and refusing the Confederate offer to allow Northern doctors to attend the Union prisoners in their hands.
The trial, long and complex, was held in the new US capital, Chicago. Eminent lawyers were engaged on both sides. A number of Radical Republican politicians, hoping to revive political careers, were eager to take the stand against their former president.
The impression that most observers had of Lincoln at the trial was that of a wily corporate lawyer and astute political animal and of a powerful but somewhat warped personality. His employment of specious arguments and false dilemmas, semantic maneuvers, and homely and sometimes bawdy anecdotes to divert attention from the prosecution’s points, became increasingly transparent as the weeks of the trial wore on.
The high point of the trial came when Lincoln, on the stand, avowed that though he now regretted much that had happened, everything had been according to God’s inscrutable will and he had acted only so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people should not perish from the earth. The courtroom erupted in guffaws, whistles, and howls of derision that went on for an hour.
Found guilty, the former leader’s sentence was suspended on condition that he never enter the territory of the United States again. His subsequent wanderings became the subject of a famous story and play, "The Man Without a Country," and were most notable for his collaboration with Karl Marx, whom he met in the British Museum Library, in the early Communist movement that was to have so great an impact on European history.
About the time the war crimes trial ended, General Lee was inaugurated as the second President of the Confederate States. Speaking by the statue of Washington on the capitol grounds at Richmond, he described the first recommendations he would send to Congress. The Southern people had been deeply moved by the loyalty and shared suffering of most of their black servant population during the war. It was time to fulfill the hopes of the Southern Founders of American liberty. He called for a plan that would provide freedom, at the age of maturity, along with land or training in a skilled trade, for all slaves born after a date to be set. The plan had already been approved by the clergy of all denominations in the Confederate States and by many other leading citizens. (It is to Lee’s farseeing wisdom that peaceful relations between white and black in the CSA have not been disrupted by the strife that has characterized other countries of the New World.)" (Calhoun, 2001)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/wilson2.html Accessed 30 Aug 2010.
nice and informative posting,found it interesting,although I knew most of the info.Have always been interested in the Civil War because of the affect on our nation.
You are more well read than the average American then... The civil war is an embarrasment to our nation in my humble honest opinion. A nation at war with itself is not a good thing at all! Most people just think Lincoln was some altruistic leader pushing none other than the most benevolent casues.
You can either look this up at the library or
google Lincolns speeches in 1858 when he
was really politicing.
Those speeches in his own words will tell you
about Lincoln the man.
Pay close attention to his views on black people
and what he proposed to do with them.
My comments are factually based and if you google lincoln the war criminal you will be amazed at how much info there is out there from professors at different universities and well know scholors...
Words are one thing, actions are a whole other ball game.
If anyone wants to really see the depravity of what we Americans can do to one another on a large scale read or watch 80 acres of hell, it horrible.
I agree! Those camps were terrible injustices and are another embarrasment to our great nation.
believe slavery was biggest issue of the war as Charles said in his post.It was a travesty in the history of United states due to the great loss of life.I am not so sure we are doomed to live it in the future.We are living in troublesome times that could easily find the nation at an erruption point similiar to the times of the Civil War.It will sad because we will be vulerable to outside invaisions and attacks from all sides.
The emancipation proclaimation was written more than a year after the war...
The confederacy had already voted the end of slavery over a 7 year period where all slaves were required to be taught to read and write and also a trade. This is most commonly referred to as endentured servitude...
I am agreeing with most of what you said........slavery was not the biggest cause of war.It is more of the federal govt trying to control every aspect of every state.which was not the purpose of the Declaration of Independence.....there for we are not a true democratic govt.WE lost it along the way.And now because of BIG government we are on the same road they were in around the 1850's and 60's.We are prime for another civil war I believe......It is very sad to say and hope it won't happen,but we are walking a fine line.
Our government here is and has always technically been that of a republic and not a true deomocracy anyway, but now we have strayed so far from what the founding fathers created that one could wonder if we can ever get things back to order at this point...
Lincoln was the beginning of the federalist regime vanguard and thus the beginning of the end in my humble honest opinion...
I have never thought about what U said, in the way U just said it. I have done my best to keep up w this thread, and Im not sure how old U are, but I was taught that Lincoln was a "Good Ole Man", know what I mean?? This brings on a whole new prospective of "Nationalism" and actual retrospect of where we are, compared to where we were. We've not moved too far,but the activist and haters have...
I am in my thirties and have 6 years of college in Criminal Justice and Forensic Psychology... In grade school I remember hearing about "Honest Abe" and what a great American president he was. In college I had a professor in my undergrad years that pointed out very impressively many of the ironies of history and how it is not usually based on fact but rather interpreatation of fact and perception of reality. there are usually countless sides to any story and over the years the stories change and become myth, legend, folklore or whatever you want to call it.
Nationalism or Federalism are a terrible end to a country that was once as great as ours was. Tyranny of the Minority or tyranny of the majority are both a problem. When a nation is the size of ours it should be led locally to ensure that the actual wished of the public are met and that we are not bound to laws that fail to respresent our actual wants and needs.
Actually I believe you go back as far a Thomas Jefferson to the beginning of the power being less of what the common folk want.Yes,I agree we are more of a republic....but we can only blame ourselves because most poeple aren't interested in getting involved in "big" govt.One, because I believe they don't understand or care.Secondly most say this is what we pay our congressman and senators from.
1. It was not just plantation owners who owned slaves. Pretty much any middle-class homeowner did. My family owned at least one slave, named Molly, in middle Tennessee. Ironically, the family was for the North as Tennessee was a divided state. The Southern Army came through the area looking to kill or conscript the northern sympathizers. My family's men folk hid in a cave. Molly was captured, a rope put around her neck, and threatened with lynching if she did not tell where the menfolk were. She did not, and all survived.
2. Slavery did not start in 1863. It started in 1619 with the first boat load at Jamestown. My eight times great grandfather, Dr. John Woodson, bought six of those slaves off the first boat for his plantation. He was later killed by Indians. His musket, which his wife and plantation hand used to kill several Indians, resides in the Virginia State Historical Museum in Richmond to this day. I saw it last September when I was there.
I think to bring up "the other side" of the Civil War is a good thing. There is a serious case to be made about states' rights to which I concur. But this revisionist history, with Lincoln being convicted at trial and banned from the country, is just a load of crap without any foundation at all. It does no good to go this far awry. It makes us look like fools. Too many people were there. Too many pictures were taken. Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth. There was no trial. Lee was not the second president of the Confederacy.
I fully realize Lincoln was not the saint he is made out to be. I know he wanted to send Blacks back to Africa. Liberia was founded for this very purpose.
But don't believe everything you read on them thar internets. You need to question everything--not just the establishment view of things, but the flights of fancy like this one that have no basis in reality. This is as bad as the liberals who say they will pay $100,000 for sex tapes of Beck so they can destroy him.
I won't post on this topic again because it is a thankless task.
My information actually has proper academic support by respected people, not just internet nonesense. I was looking for the paper I wrote in college about this, but alas this was 10 years ago and a lifetime ago, the computer disc is somewhere with this info, but where I may never know...
The writer of the information I posted with the exception of my intro is a Dr. Wilson whom is professor of history at the University of South Carolina and editor of The Papers of John C. Calhoun.
"Abraham Lincoln should without a doubt be named America’s greatest war criminal. His war of invasion not only killed over 600,000 innocent Americans but it was obvious from his earlier speeches that he had previously advocated the prevalent constitutional right of democratic, state by state secession. Lincoln’s War also effectively overthrew the existing decentralized, limited federal government that had existed and governed well in the US since established by America’s founding fathers. Lincoln bastardized a respected federal government with limited powers into a dictatorial, uncontrollable Washington federal empire.
Because of Lincoln, the former American constitutional republic fell from a dream of liberty and limited government into the nightmare big government we have today without the earlier checks and balances of state sovereignty. After Lincoln, In foreign policy, the US forgot George Washington’s warning about neutrality and we became an aggressive military abroad until today we have troops defending the Washington Empire in over 144 nations around the world.
The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connections as possible. It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world.—George Washington
Lincoln shares his war criminal actions with other well know tyrants that waged war on their own people. History shows us that politicians make war against their own citizens even more than against foreign nations. The reasons are often to establish and preserve their power base, as was the case in the Russian Revolution and the Mao Revolution. For others, like Hitler, it was misguided super patriotism and racism that brought death to tens of millions. Sadly, in the case of Abraham Lincoln’s war against the Confederacy and Southern civilians, it was all for money, company profits and government tariff revenues. A simple case of political pay back in return for the Northeastern manufacturing interests that supported the Republican Party and his campaign for the presidency.
Early in his career, Abraham Lincoln was an honorable statesman who let election year politics and the special interests supporting his presidential campaign corrupt a once great man. He knew what he was doing was wrong and unconstitutional but succumbed, as in the case of many modern day politicians, to the allure of money, power and ego.
Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.
-- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848
This quote above shows Lincoln as a statesman 12 years before he plunged the United States into its most disastrous war. Suffering a death toll so high in death rates as a percentage of total population, his act of carnage ranks with the political genocides of Stalin, Lenin and Mao during their communist revolutions. A death toll so great that it dwarfs the American deaths in all of our many declared and undeclared wars before and since this American holocaust of death and destruction.
From the following quote you can see that later Lincoln radically adjusted his rhetoric to meet the needs and demands of his business establishment supporters and financial supporters.
No state, upon its own mere motion, can lawfully get out of the Union. Plainly, the central idea of secession, is the essence of anarchy. --Abraham Lincoln
Why the complete change in rhetoric and actions? Simple, to preserve high tariffs and corporate profits for the Northeastern business establishment. Lincoln who earlier in his career had obviously favored the right of peaceful secession, provoked a war that killed 600,000 Americans, as a pay back to the eastern manufacturing establishment that bankrolled his presidential campaign. These special interests would have suffered serious financial loss if a low tariff Confederate States of America were allowed to peacefully, democratically and constitutionally secede from the United States in lawful state constitutional conventions of secession which were identical to the ratification conventions when they had joined the Union. Thus the real reasons for the death and destruction of Lincoln’s War were covered up and hidden by historians who continue, even today, to deny the truth and hide the ultimate costs of Lincoln’s American holocaust.
While Lincoln’s death toll is small in comparison to total deaths by Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Hitler, there are many similarities between these men. In the Russian Civil War, from 1917 - 1922 around 9 million died under Lenin and we must add another 20 million under Stalin from 1929 to 1939. The Mao communist regime in China killed 44 to 70 million Chinese from 1949 – 1975.
Still the US constitutional republic, as established by our founding fathers, was in effect destroyed by Lincoln’s unconstitutional war just as surely as Mao and Lenin over threw the existing Chinese and Russian governments.
The multitude of Lincoln apologists would say that this is just another Confederate argument certainly not accepted by most historians. I might counter that the opinions and books of these "so called" establishment historians who live off my tax dollars through government funding at liberal controlled universities and think tanks are prejudiced towards Lincoln and Washington DC. They are no different from the official government historians in China, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Their job is to lie to the American people and cover up a true and honest account of our history in order to support the government and political system in power.
History shows us that a fair and honest discussion of Lincoln’s wartime actions will not be possible as long as the Washington political establishment remains in power. Since Lincoln, the Washington Empire has reigned supreme and omnipotent and for this reason, establishment historians have never honestly debated the Lincoln war crimes.
Consider this. Was a fair and honest account of Lenin or Stalin written and published during the Soviet Communist regime? Of course not. Could a less than worshipful history of Hitler’s Third Reich have been published until after 1945? No! Even today, with only nominal communist control of China, an honest appraisal of Mao’s revolution and crimes against the Chinese people still is not possible. It is no different today in the United States than it is in Red China or was in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Just as Lenin’s statue could not be toppled in Red Square until after the fall of the Soviet Communist government, or the truth about Hitler couldn’t be told until after defeat of Nazi Germany, it is the same here in the United States.
It is my hope that someday, in the not too distant future, a true account of the war crimes of Lincoln will be discussed, debated and even acknowledged. The Lincoln Memorial should be remodeled to show the horrors of "Lincoln the War Criminal" with the opportunity for all to visit Washington and learn how war crimes, genocide and holocaust are not just crimes that foreign politicians commit. Government and political tyranny can and has happened here just like in Germany, China and the Soviet Union and that through education and honest history, it will never happen here again.
In the future, may we have the opportunity to learn about the Nazi holocaust at the United States National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and then have the chance to visit the Lincoln War Crimes and American Holocaust Museum a few blocks away. One will state for all the world that NEVER AGAIN will a tyrant or government be allowed to target, exterminate and destroy an ethnic, racial or religious minority. The other will pledge NEVER AGAIN in America will we allow a president or government to make unconstitutional war against Sovereign states or their citizens and then cover up the truth up for over 145 years.
We should start today with an honest appraisal of what Lincoln really did to Dixie, how our black and white innocent noncombatants suffered under his total war policy against civilians. Finally we should address the cost in lives, lost liberty and federal taxes the citizens of the US have had to endure because our limited constitutional republic was destroyed.
Abraham Lincoln was a great man, a smart politician and he could have been an excellent president, had he considered the short-term costs of his high tariff and the long time price every American had to pay for his war of invasion. It is time to stop worshipping Lincoln and educate the public about the war crimes he committed against the citizens of the Southern States so this WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!" (Holland, 2010)
http://www.lizmichael.com/warcrimi.htm Accessed 31 August 2010
Slavery goes back much futher...to Biblical times but as America,it started as soon as the colonist stepped off the boat.Unfortunately it is now part of human nature.Most people will enslave anyone as long as they can get away with,I believe.
You are absolutely right!
Slavery, Prostitution, Murder and Greed are all parts of human nature and many people are easily corrupted by power and influence. Many people require a leader and the average leader no matter how benevolent his cause is purported to be still has the goal of leading men...
my collection was a book written by his law partner, It is the smallest book in my collection but huge with insight. Lincoln was a liar and big bad opportunist. The masterful opportunist part is what finally got him where he was.
I will find it somewhere here in my te tiny, WAY overstuffed house and post some of the pages from it.
I have not read that book, but if you find the title of it I would be interested in reading it!
Historians seem to add a twist to history to
make it read their way. I like to take quotes from
the person or persons in question before I
form my own opinion, not attach to someone else's.
As you quoted , in 1848 it was perfectly legal for
a state to succeed according to Lincoln but when
he comes into power it is a different story.
It appears to me the south could have survived
with out the north but the north needed the cotton and
tax base from the south.
One thing to keep in mind is the south never tried to
overthrow the federal government just separate from
I like the way you put that:
The south wanted to be left alone... Lincoln refused to leave them alone and many people died over Lincoln's pride!