Forums / Political & Legal / Floatila

4 years 46 weeks ago, 7:14 PM

luckybychoice

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Floatila

When St.-Sgt. S. fast-roped down from an air force Black Hawk helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship on Monday morning, he did not expect to be landing in what he called “a battlefield” and facing off against a group of “murderous mercenaries.”

The 15th and last naval commando from Flotilla 13 (the Shayetet) to rappel down onto the ship from the helicopter, S. said on Thursday that he was immediately attacked by what the IDF has called “the mob of mercenaries” aboard the vessel, just like the soldiers who had boarded just before him.

Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.

As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.

He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.

The attackers had already seized two pistols from the commandos, and fired repeatedly at them. Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three.

On Thursday, S. sat down with The Jerusalem Post at the Shayetet’s base in northern Israel for an exclusive interview, during which he described the dramatic events aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday; he is being considered for a medal of valor.

“When I hit the deck, I was immediately attacked by people with bats, metal pipes and axes,” S. told the Post. “These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.”

find the rest of the story here: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 46 weeks ago, 10:50 PM

ecaman

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Sounds a bit different

Not at all the liberal left media's report, is it?

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. (Mark Twain).
4 years 46 weeks ago, 6:31 AM

luckybychoice

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you got that right

now Iran wants to provide escort for the 2nd group of ships,that's what you call NO RESPECT for this President at all,Iran doesn't give a shit what obama does,you wouldn't see that with Bush senior as president

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 46 weeks ago, 8:29 AM

clintlebo

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If a helicopter started deploying armed soldiers on my boat, I would defend my property. Why is this okay for me, but not for the flotilla?

I am just asking as I have minimal experience and/or knowledge of maritime protocol.

thank you
clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
4 years 46 weeks ago, 10:40 AM

LLE

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When you took your boat out on the high seas, and had a specific sailing route planned, did you happen to check international authorities on what events, if any, might be occurring along the route? If the answer is "no"---in this present era of dope pirates, property pirates and terrorists, you made a fundamental security error. But if you were in some way attacked on the high seas, under these circumstances, nowhere near an announced blockade area, you certainly have the right of self-defense.

The "flotilla" and its [admitted enemies of Israel] backers were given fair warning, just as we gave fair warning to the Russians during the Cuban Missile crisis. This is a perfectly legal action from one potential [state] belligerant to another. If you happened to be in the blockade area, it then becomes your misfortune to be treated as a potential belligerant.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 46 weeks ago, 11:46 AM

clintlebo

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LLE

As always, thank you for the intelligent explanation. As I stated above, I am niave to maritime protocol. I have never onwed a boat or even been on a ship on the high seas. I was under the impression that the ship you were sailing had the same laws pertaining to it as your house. The logic was derived that the ship was the residence during the excursion. But it seems there are more rules.
So even in International waters one can be forcefully boarded by an international authority? Who are the international authorities, and how do they get their powers of enforcement?

thank you
clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
4 years 46 weeks ago, 1:18 PM

LLE

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by some self-appointed international authority. But, for example, there is no telling what the UN might cook up, and we would be hoist on our own pitard by being a member, unless some proposed action were able to be vetoed by the USA. You, as a private US citizen, sailing in international waters in your boat/ship [residence], under USA registry, must assure yourself, however, that you can effectively protect yourself from those nasty, rule-breaking entities who see you as a target of opportunity. You are probably not going to get the opportunity to sue them in a maritime court, after an attack!! Similarly, you would take navigational precautions, not to run afowl of the Coast Guards of any sovereign nation, and if you were careless, you should not be surprised to be stopped and boarded. Being the strict follower of the rules of the road that you are, you would also try VERY diligently, not to have a navigational blunder into an area where a legal, self-defense blockade was in progress.

Being that the world is now super-civilized, the "rules of war" are pretty well circumscribed, if not always followed to the letter. [That was one of my jokes for the day]. Thus, HAMAS, a stateless belligerant [they are an openly declared enemy of Israel] can be armed and instigated to attack, by States who have not as yet issued a formal declaration of war. You can guess why. It is difficult to put a tactical nuke on a HAMAS target of opportunity, even if you knew where a target was at the moment, but Damascus, Teheran or even Ankara are different. HAMAS and other similar organizations, need to be continually supplied with weapons and/or the materials and methods to construct weapons. What better cover than a humanitarian flotilla [or Russian freighters with disguised cargos, in 1962].

So, as Krauthammer observed, the last defense available is the passive blockade, which under international "law" and the euphemismistic "rules of war", is a legal form of self defense/preservation. Issue the necessary warnings, stop the blockade runners, search for weapons and other war-making materials, and then expedite the shipment of relief materials to the Gaza. Charlie also observed that much of the rest of the world does not want Israel to have the right of self-preservation, hoping that they will just go quietly, once more, to whatever new forms of gas chambers that the Islamo-Extremists have designed for them. But most of us know what "never again" means.......................It would be a catastrophe, especially if we allow Iran to develop nukes.
Sorry for the editorial.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 46 weeks ago, 1:31 PM

clintlebo

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LLE

When I ask a question, I am happy that someone takes the time to explain the knowledge they have acquired. You should never apologize to me for providing information I asked for.
I am still having a difficult time with "castle law" (for lack of a better term) on a ship/boat. Perhaps equating transporatation to a building is what is throwing me off. Driving an RV across the country will be my comparison to a sea excursion. You can pull off the side of the road and sleep, they come with kitchens, etc. What I think you are typing is that I would not knowingly drive an RV into a gang neighborhood or try to cross a road block. But I still might get attacked by thugs on the road in which case I CAN defend myself and my property.

Am I comprehending the lesson for today?

thank you
clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
4 years 46 weeks ago, 1:40 PM

Pkato

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though, the intent was not to bring supplies to Gaza.
The intent was to show up Israel, to cause an incident
and get headlines. Too bad they didn't sink the ship
with everyone aboard! No disrespect to all terrorists
who are actuallly bringing supplies to displaced people :)

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
4 years 46 weeks ago, 1:50 PM

HampsterW

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Yeah, like the

Russians did to the Somali pirate ship they captured, they scuttled that son of a bitch with all hands on board.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 46 weeks ago, 8:03 AM

LLE

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It is environmental. And, by the way, I thank the Patrolman for his "bottom line". Absolutely correct--that was the purpose of the challenge and, the Israelis seem to have been uncharacteristically naive to have planned such a relatively hokey interdiction plan. [Monday morning quarterbacking is much easier than being in the real game].

Now back to Clint.. this may help, but it is difficult to explain., Clint; when you or I are in our MH [yes, I have a small one], driving all across the good old USA, we are in our native country, as well as being at one time or another, in many different sovereign states of the 50. The law(s) of those land(s), prevail. In many instances, the states have "Castle Doctrine" statutes, and even if the one you are in [during an attack], does not have a Castle Doctrine statute, the principles of well-settled law as regards self defense, will be applied. You are in the soft, warm, fuzzy cocoon of relatively effective, sane support and due process.
BUT--when you are out in the middle of the big bad ocean in your luxury yacht, you are "in" the USA only if your vessel is registered under the US Flag. Even if it is so registered, who is going to protect your interests after you are attacked? You can get on the radio and call for help--but if you think carrying a Cop around on land is difficult, how about being in international waters, subject to [sob] the vagaries of international law. Yes you can defend yourself with deadly force, and if you are going out on the high seas you better be prepared to do that. But, you must apply due diligence in staying out of potential harms' way, otherwise. If you sail into a legal blockade, which you "should have known" was there in the first place [due dilligence], and you are then warned, and do not comply or you act suspiciously, and then are boarded, damaged, injured, maimed or your vessel is sunk, if you live through the ordeal, do not expect an international maritime court to award you damages on the basis that your actions were for genuine self-defense purposes against an attack. On top of that, in the same scenario, if YOU injured, maimed or killed legal boarders, or caused damage to their property, you might sustain heavy monetary penalties, yourself. Again, stating a defense of "self-defense" would be useless. So, it is a lot different on dry land, in the USA/State of the USA, under settled law., than out on the briny deep in an almost totally defenseless posture compared to those who would attack you and make you disappear, with no concern about international law. In effect, while they are killing you and pilaging your yacht, they are saying "if you don't like it, why don't you have us arrested"? And if you entered what amounted to an [international] war zone, you would have incurred the liability for personal injury to yourself or others, acting legally under the rules of war, because you "should have known".
This is tortuous--but I tried!!

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 45 weeks ago, 1:50 PM

clintlebo

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rules of the high seas

That's it!!! I will stay away from the high seas with my luxury yacht. My head is hurting trying to understand the "logic" presented to me, even though the presentation is a wonderful example of sharpshooting information in a commando styled presentation. I thank you Mr. LLE for being an excellent source of knowledge on this exquisite day. Let me think on your words and get back to you.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
4 years 45 weeks ago, 7:03 PM

LLE

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considered myself a sharpshooter, especially as regards information. I do, however, admire being referred to as reflecting a commando style!! You are certainly welcome to whatever I[claim to] know.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 45 weeks ago, 7:31 PM

zx12rmike

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Clintlebo, Wikipedia has an explanation for Maritime and/or Admiralty Law. I didn't read it all but have fun.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson

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