HecklerKoch45  |
GLOCK: Perfection or Not?
Now, First off I want to say that I do like Glock pistols. I do enjoy shooting glock pistols. When I went to purchase my first handgun, it was a Glock 26. My next purchase was a Glock 22, my next was a glock 23. Now.... I dont own a glock. Now, My first glock performed flawless. I put at least 1500 rounds through it no problem. My G22 was used, and 2nd gen... it had LOTS of Problems. My G23, only had a couple hundred rounds through it but none the less, it stovepiped once which could have been due to my grip, ammo etc. The fact of the matter is, I once used to love glocks, but now, I am a little hesitant to buy one. We all have heard about the Gen4 glocks and how bad they suck. The springs are too heavy causing a lot of stovepipes. They no longer can have the tenifer coating due to EPA regulations (tenifer's chemical composition contains Cyanide Poison). I have even heard that the "polymer" in the newer Gen4 glocks is not polymer anymore, its just plastic(yes there is a difference- look up the difference between polymer plastic and plastic). I know I am going to get reemed on this one, because I know a lot of you guys have glocks, and Glock has probably one of the biggest fan bases of all gun companies. And we all know that glock guys all get a little bent outta shape when we mention them being not so perfect as they claim. Now I bet there are plenty of people who will tell you they have never had a jam within thousands of rounds through their glocks. I bet there are more of those people than there are that have had problems, but thats not the point. I understand that ALL guns have problems. It doesnt matter whether you have a Glock, H&K, Sig, or various 1911. Chances are, you are going to experience a problem at one point or another with some type of gun. But my point is that maybe Glock doesnt make their guns like they used to. Its everywhere about the gen4 but, even with gen3 if you watch enough videos on youtube, you will here people explaining the problems they have had with their glocks. Im sure there are plenty others but these are just off the top of my head. So what can one take away from this? I dont really know, Its just something I wanted to put out there, because I have been hearing a lot of bullshit from everybody who think that glocks are the best guns in the world. People say " just get a glock, you wont have any problems" Bullshit. Despite what everyone thinks, glocks arent the best guns, like I said the best handgun in the world to each of us, are the ones we are holding right now. Some will swear by Glock, some will swear by Sig or HK, some will swear by S&W, etc. Dont let someone else decide your gun for you. My main point, GLOCK is a fine weapon, a very nice reliable weapon. They are NOT Perfect. They are NOT fully loaded with awesome features. There ARE better guns for more expensive prices. There are guns that are just as good for around the same price. Glocks are actually pretty plain and simple, just the way some people like them. And IF you do buy a glock, Id go with a gen3. Dont get me wrong, I think another Glock Purchase is a couple guns down the road, maybe a glock 21SF, but like I said, perhaps a couple more guns down the road. Thanks for reading everyone, let the comments and that headbutting begin! ~Sig Sauer 516 Patrol 5.56 NATO~HK45 .45 ACP~HK45c .45 ACP~HK P30L 9mm~HK P30 .40 S&W~W. German Sig Sauer P220 .45 ACP~Walther P22~ |
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Ishootdaily
far from it...
but it is a solid tool, and cheap in price, kind of like the AK of pistols... literally, imo...
HecklerKoch45
I couldnt agree more, Thats actually what I tell people when they come in to the shop to look at glocks. I tell them they are like the AK47 of the pistol world. Maybe not the best, but they damn sure do what they are supposed to do and are cheap.
mattitude
Yeah I agree with this. I do not prefer a Glock but I do believe it is a fine tool. But it is far from perfect. In fact, I would argue that few pistols (if any) would ever be considered "perfect".
I also think it is an interesting observation that most agencies where Glock's are carried are because it is the standard issue and very few of the agencies or departments (such as SWAT) that I am aware of carry Glock's, they usually carry something else for their pistol.
Could just be personal preference but an interesting observation anyway.
Quinton
Great post HK. Although I am a big fan of Glocks as well, I would not put them on the same level as an HK or a Sig. If they were perfect most people wouldn't have to modify their Glocks with new accessories as you mentioned. It's a great gun for the price no doubt, but it most certainly is not perfect. I would take an HK or a Sig over a Glock any day.
I've also never understood how spending a couple hundred more dollars for an HK or a Sig is a huge deal to most people. We're talking about a gun that you trust your life to. You spend that much for a couple hundred rounds of ammo, I don't get it :-/
Ishootdaily
Ditto...
Any weapon will do in a time of need, preferences and choices are factored by different reasoning mostly at the time one comes to the decision that carrying a firearm is called for.
Though it can be biased by the one selling the person a weapon and can lead to some seriously bad choices, sad to say....
But, taking into consideration just how much money is spent on a 50 round box of ammo multiplied by the number of boxes shot each trip to the range again multiplied by the number of trips to the range over any period of time and you quickly double what was initially spent on the weapon in question...
I own and carry, at times, a CZ 2075 RAMI 40. It is not a weapon I would suggest to anyone new to shooting nor is any large caliber sub-sompact for that matter, including a Glock.
But that goes for any weapon really, unless they are willing to spend the money on ammo and time at the range to become proficient with it's use in not only slow fire but rapid fire under stress if possible (secondary defensive instruction is worth it's time in Gold)...
I feel this is one of the stronger points of the Glock, you do not have to worry about forgetting the safety, decocker or anything else beyond, inserting a magazine, chambering a round, pointing it and pulling the trigger.. (a functional tool)
HecklerKoch45
Thanks, yea I feel the same way. While I try to save money in other areas and aspects of my life, I do not when purchasing a firearm, that is, a tool that could save my life....or not.
button5560
i had one way back when they first started with the .40. i can't remember the model. the only thing i do remember about it was that i hated it! i could not get it to feed more than 3 or 4 rounds at a time without messing up. it was one of the first to come out and i know they are drasticlly better and more reliable. i will make my next purchase 23 just because i have heard so many people talk about glocks, and how much they like them. like he said i don't really think there is one absolute best gun, it depends on what you are comfortable with and trust. speaking of which is a model 23 a good choich or maybe something else? i do want to have a .40 and really don't know alot about glocks. gimme some ideas on which one to choose.
BluedSteelCharisma
Looove mine, gen 3, broken in, runs like a Kenyan, my CCW
HecklerKoch45
If you want to have a .40 I think the G23 is a great option. I would go for a Gen3 before they quit making them, or wait until they fix all the stuff on the Gen4 glocks. But yea, if you want a .40 Id go with the G23. Compact enough to carry still, while giving you 13 rounds of .40. Of course if size is no deciding factor, the G22 or G27 are also both excellent options. G22 for fullsize high capacity mags(15rd), G27 for deep concealed carry. G23 for the best of both. If you want a .45 ACP glock, Id go with the G21, I mean what is it 13 or 14 rounds of 45? nice! And for the 9mm, a glock 19 is perfect, G26 for deep concealed carry, and glock 17 for fullsize option. I will tell you that if you decide to go with the .40 glocks, you will see some slide peening, and that is normal. Whether you are cool with that or not is up to you, but you can expect to see some serious wear on the locking block area. Like I said it is normal, but when you first see it after a couple hundred rounds you will be like WTF?
Ishootdaily
Solid choice of the Glock persuasion, night sites of course!
button5560
if i had seen any wear premature or not, after my past experiance i probably would have had a cow. i think i am going for the 23, i found one with very low round count at a local store and can get a good deal. so i guess i will have one. as soon as this snow storm lets up i'm gonna go get it. i am mainly wanting to see if they are as good as everyone says they are, and know for myself. if they are i will quit turning my nose up at them. thanks for the info. i will let ya'll know how i like it.
Shakleford
For me .......Yes! I love everything about them........There are things I love about Sigs, and 1911's too, but not everything. To each there own!
702CitizenArmory
I have had 2 handguns in my life, first one was a 2nd gen G23 (maybe not a good choice for first handgun) it was a good, not great gun ! I did not really like the feel in my hand, I had no problem hitting my target but, my groups were not that tight . Now I own a G19 3rd gen and I love it ,no problems so far, I did change out the guide rod with a steel one, added a recoil buffer also meprolight night sights. I can shoot this gun alot better then the G23, I really want a HK P30 V3 in 9mm, I just cant afford to get one (out of work ! ) and the only weapon i have at the moment is my G19 so i dont fell comfertable trading it in to try and get the HK P30 and i have concerns that it whould take some time to adjust to the DA/SA system I have never shot before !
HecklerKoch45
Yea the DA/SA is different than the glocks, I dont think you will have a problem getting used to it, but the double action trigger pull on the HK is A LOT heavier than glocks trigger. But the SA trigger is real nice. When I shoot at the range, I shoot for accuracy with single action, and train for CCW by decocking it. Its really easy to do touble taps with HK SA trigger, and even easier if you have the LEM.
catfish88
Glocks are not perfect pistols, but they do what they are supposed to do. Mine have all gone "bang" everytime I've pulled the trigger and seem to be pretty rugged too. They don't do it with style, they are kinda ugly afterall, but they function very well. Not the most accurate, but as accurate as what most people are going to need it to be. They are very reliable. The "perfect" firearm has never been produced and it probably will never be. Extreme accuracy usually brings lower reliability etc. There is always a trade off somewhere. And, what is perfect, well, the concept is different for me than it is for you.
mustang54
G19 for carry and G22 for nightstand.. Over 1000 rnds thru both..never 1 problem.. only additions are more factory mags... No, I don'tget 1.5" groups, but all shots would fit nicely in a size small tshirt.. Will shoot anything put through it..
gomer
Well, here is my 2 cents i've never fired a glock. In my humble opinion, any semi-auto that doesn't have a safety is asking for trouble (I know, as my buddy always points out, there's no safety on revolvers) but I'm just too old fashioned (maybe just too damn old, period) to like a pistol that doesn't have a lever to throw & make it safe!
CharlesW
I have a SA Revolver with a crossbar safety
Heritage 22 combo
Reaper308
Gomer- Glocks have 3 safties.
My opinion- everyone's opinion of perfection is different. The only pistol that I would consider perfect is one that I have customized every inch of to my liking and that will function flawlessly every single time I pull the trigger. Glocks have a lot of the characteristics that I would look for in a perfect gun, however I would not consider them perfect. They are very reliable pistols offered at a price point that is affordable to the majority of people looking to buy a handgun (even if they have to save a bit).
clintlebo
I just love inflammatory posts. They usually trigger the fight or flight reaction in everyone.
clint
gomer
clint
I didn't mean to be inflamitory, incendiary, or contraversial, just stating my personal opinoin. Perhaps, if I ever have the oppertunity to shoot a glock, my opinion might be changed. I try to keep an open mind, just not so open that my brain falls out!!!!
Ishootdaily
Hehe...
you sound very French, Clint...
j.k.
lol
juliopapa
french canadian, like in france but without the shitty attitude
luckybychoice
the white flag waving!
HappinessIsaWarmGun
I don't think so. Most any gun will work just fine if properly maintained and the proper ammo is used. Have browning 380 purchased in 69, Colt 45, Keltec, Taurus, auto ordinance, S&W, Marlin and I thinks that it's. Never had a problem.
Ishootdaily
That don't make you bad people, my Gram was from Fredickton NB and her Family are Qubec'rs.
juliopapa
Lucky you are not stuck here in the snow. it's currently 18Degrees F here with a windchill that takes it down to 9...
do you have a website where you show your work, Allthough I don't carry, i still love everything gun related!
dave329
As most know here and can see in my pic, i am a 23 owner and will drop my 02 here :-)
First i agree there is NO perfect gun. That bein said i have owned my gen.3 23 for about 2 1/2 years now i guess. I carry it dailey (CC)
It is showing no wear on the finish. I use a fobus paddle holster. Up to this point it has had countless shots fired and never the first malfunction.
Maybe i am just lucky not sure but it suites me and my needs well. Also on the wear issue above, if when you break down the gun for cleaning you will put just a dot of grease (several good choices out there) in the top of the slide where the block comes in contact it will greatly reduce this wear appearance. Also if you get more mags stick with the factory glock mags. Seems the after markets have some issues that do effect feeding.
I would recomend this gun for anyone, i bet my life on it dailey when i holster it and feel just fine. One more thing for a mere 99.99 plus shipping and handling of course, you can change barrels and have a .357 sig. Still use your .40 mags. Pretty nice.
button5560
well i did get the 23. i haven't been able to shoot it yet ( snow and colder than a witches left tit) but it doesn't feel akward like i remember them being. still think they look boxy tho.but everything seems to be going that route these days. the grip is different than i am used to but not uncomfortable. can't wait to play with it.thanks everyone.
runawaygun762
Why? Simple. Same manual of arms, simple operation, and extreme reliability. As far as "all" the aftermarket things people have to buy, that's crap. people buy shit to customize their guns. I will be the first person to admit Glock's factory sights are absolute garbage and should be replaced first thing. I have a set of competition cut Heinie slant pro straight eight sights on my G34 and standard set on my G19, with a set of trijicon three-dot night sights on my G26. Replace the sights and leave the rest alone.
The trigger on the Glock, while not crisp or even smooth, is consistent. Consistency is the key to being good at shooting. It is much easier to become proficient with a gun that has the same trigger pull from first round to last, as opposed to a DA/SA.
Put your gun in a vise-type rest and fire for groups. Then fire the same gun standing unsupported. Do the groups get bigger? if so, then you aren't able to shoot to the gun's potential. Most major manufacturers' guns fall into this, so accuracy isn't as big an issue as people make it seem, although I have done pretty well in the limited time I spent in action pistol practice and matches, against a whole variety of brands and types.
As for the fuckhead in Tucson, if his weapon malfunctioned, it may very well have been the magazine or limp wristing it, or maybe divine intervention (After a little girl was killed? He waited too long to step in if it was him, huh?), or simply a mechanical malfunction. I have a had a few malfunctions with my G34, but those were from shooting powderpuff loads while developing competition loads (I ended up loading to full power. It's only 9mm, anyway). Extended mags don't do well, but the straight mags didn't do well with the MP5's either. That's why they're curved now.
I bought my G34 strictly for competition, so spending a bit extra on a carry gun isn't a problem for me. I just don't see any advantage of having a Sig or HK over having a Glock when the five that I have had through my life have worked so well, and that extra couple hundred bucks is over a thousand rounds' worth of reloading components.
Ishootdaily
Just wondering....
runawaygun762
Putting a gun in a vise-type rest (Ransom rest is the most popular) allows you to take all human error out of the firing process and can show you the weapon's best accuracy potential.
HecklerKoch45
First off the DA/SA thing only applies to anything if you carry it decocked, otherwise the trigger pull is the same everytime. You can even carry them in SA with hammer back and safety on like a 1911 (cocked and locked) if you want to. That completely eliminates the 2 different trigger settings. Its not like you go from DA to SA then back to DA then SA. Secondly, I think you will find if you shoot an HK or Sig that they are more accurate than glocks, do your bench rest thing and be honest. Lastly, if you hold some of the newer HK models in your hand, and take advantage of all the ambi controls, it will spoil you. They ambi controls really are nice, and make one handed reloads much quicker and easier. Just had to defend my guns as you did yours. HK also come with polished feed ramps and stock 3 dot sights and a lot of other things but i wont go there.
Ishootdaily
We get a serious laugh out of the people who bring their weapons in from the range and exclaim "This pistol shoots like shit"
Don't get me wrong, there are some that seriously have issues with the barrel crown from the factory, but there isn't a modern handgun which leaves a factory that can not out shoot the shooter..
As far as Glock goes, in my hand, the grip, trigger and overall feel of the weapon lend to my not owning one. Though the 3rd gens have changed that for me mostly, the 4th gen is better. I still prefer and all metal gun over polymer and if it has to be plastic then hand me a CZ or a Glock.
Then again, with a Glock 23 and others you can spend $150.00 and under on each barrel and a mag if needed to run 9 mm, 357 sig and 40 S&W through the same frame.
HecklerKoch45
but like shakelford said, to each their own! You like your glocks and their simplicity, while I prefer the HK and the luxory of their ambi controls and everything else.
runawaygun762
Never fired an HK, never liked the feel except for the HK45. The sig P228 (M11 in army nomenclature) was nice, nice trigger, but I still don't like the DA/SA. I know how the system works, I've carried a Beretta 92 for a decade now. As far as accuracy goes, my comment was on practical accuracy. Sure, HK and Sigs may be more mechanically accurate, but if you can't shoot your gun to its fullest capabilities, then benchrest accuracy doesn't mean anything. My Glocks can outshoot me. Glocks, Sigs, HK, XD, and a whole bunch of other brands are capable of doing exactly what a combat pistol is supposed to do; go bang every time you pull the trigger. Glocks and XDs just do it without so many buttons, knobs, levers, switches, and pullcords as the others.
Ultimately, it comes down to training and personal preference. The first match I shot was a law enforcement shoot and I took first in that using my Glock 34, but with a day or so to get used to the controls, I would have done just about as well with any model out there (except Cochise County Sheriff's Office 1911s, I saw more than a few malfunctions that day) because I have the fundamentals down. I'm more comfortable with Glock because that's what I've fired the most. It's different for everyone.
You have to hand it to Glock, though. Any time a conversation on reliability comes up, the Glock is usually the standard by which others are judged and I don't often see "...more reliable than a Glock".
Ishootdaily
You have to hand it to Glock, though. Any time a conversation on reliability comes up, the Glock is usually the standard by which others are judged and I don't often see "...more reliable than a Glock".
Without doubt...
HecklerKoch45
Well said. I couldnt agree more with what you said there. I think that when someone tells you to say the first gun brand that comes to mind when mentioning reliability, glock is usually what everyone who has some knowledge of guns and experience with them would instantly think of. Now having said that, I am seeing a lot of comments on youtube where people who seem to be naive or ignorant of other gun brands seem to think glock is the ultimate reliable gun, and nothing else surpasses them which I would say is false. They say things like, "Why buy an HK, Glocks are cheaper and are MORE reliable." And when I see these things I laugh. I think that the reason that they have a reputation of such reliability is because A.) they actually are pretty damn reliable and have the edge on that subject over a lot of guns. but also B.) Money. I think that we can agree that the majority of people arent going to pay for the extra features of an HK especially when their local glock dealer who doesnt stock HKs because they are priced to the point to where they collect dust, tells them that these features are not needed, and not necessary so he can make a sale. This means more votes towards GLOCK and less votes towards HK in this reliability thing, and the one who has more followers usually is heard the loudest. I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of gun owners are simply not willing to throw down the money on an HK when they can have the simplicity and reliability of a glock. Glocks sell because the average joe can afford them, and they work like a dream. Now is that to say HK is LESS reliable? I dont think so. Is this to say that features on HK pistols(especially new ones like the HK45, HK45c, and P30, P2000 series) are completely redundant, and dont make handling that particular gun easier, and more effective? I dont think so. I find a lot of ease in the opposite controls one would expect a right hander to use. I think HK placed those slide release levers in a damn good area. For example, I lock, and release the slide with the middle of my shooting finger. When you think about that and how easy that makes things its amazing in itself and that is just a minor thing. I mean your finger is there anyways when you are done shooting, you insert a new mag, swipe your finger down to the trigger and on the way of doing so, the slide closes, and you are spittin lead again. That makes a HUGE difference in my opinion. Every little bit of time in either a dangerous or competitive situation helps. Just some things to think about, sorry for such long post again guys! :)
paint2ride
You make some great points. I think the reason they are so popular is because of the price. That is why I bought mine.
HecklerKoch45
Thanks. Yea they are also great guns, I dont think anybody should feel "undergunned" with one at all. They are a great deal. It is very hard to argue with the quality they are able to sell for such cheap prices.
ja0124
But hear goes, I own and carry a hk Usp compact 45. I have had and carried Glocks as my duty weapon. I really like both of them, the next piece I buy will be a g19. So in the end in my opinion its all in what feels best for you.