Forums / Political & Legal / Hopeless?

3 years 17 weeks ago, 9:37 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Hopeless?

While going out for lunch with some co-workers a couple of days ago, I had a very disappointing realization.
Our conversation had moved to politics at one point the topic came up about citizens being safe and secure. I had mentioned that these are nice to have, as long as freedom and liberty isn't sacrificed. As a point of reference I brought up the existing gun laws and attempted gun control attempts.
My point was that what the people that are for gun control don't realize is that they are willing to give up freedom for (IMO, perceived) safety. And that might fly in Euro monarchy turned socialist type countries, but here in the US of A, that dog don't hunt. That our patriots fought, bled, and died so that we had these freedoms and it wasn't our choice to make to give them up.
I was asked my opinion as to the extent of allowing just any body potential deadly weapons and I replied up to and including that which is allowed by military and law enforcement. With the possible exception of WMDs like Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical weapons. So they asked me if I thought citizens should have machine guns. Yes. Planes and tanks? Yes. Battle ships and submarines? Yes.
They said that was crazy. Why should an ordinary citizen need this? And my reply was why shouldn't they? What if it becomes necessary to fight against authorities that have abused their power. If the government and law enforcement is allowed to out-gun the people then we are no longer free people but subjects and that this is a concession that these authorities are above the people. And that if the people were to take up arms against them, maybe they should ask them selves why this would happen and what they need to do to keep the people happy to prevent this.
Then they said that some kook or kooks could go postal and kill innocent people. And I answered saying that this WILL happen. It's inevitable. It happens now, even with the restrictions we have and would still happen even if the restrictions were increased. But these tragedies are one of the costs of freedom. But if all citizens were allowed to bear, the extent of these tragedies would be lessened. If you want to be free, this is a risk you must assume and with it comes the responsibility of being prepared to defend against such a scenario. If one would rather feel secure and be a subject, there are plenty of other countries they can move to.
Their answer to this is that we aren't truly free and you couldn't have a society in which there is 100% freedom. I agreed to this as this would mean chaos and anarchy, but that protecting oneself and defending against tyranny is a necessity for any level of true freedom. Otherwise, we would be, at best, well cared for subjects.
And when I brought up how our founders felt about this and how the current restriction laws are unconstitutional, they said that lawful courts made this decision lawfully. To which I rebutted that they were not lawful and just because an appointed body chooses to ignore the constitution, its bill of rights, and the intent behind them doesn't make it right and that this is why our founders provided this as a right to the people. There has to be accountability to the people in all branches of government.
But there has to be restrictions, they argued. Look at free speech, for instance. That doesn't mean you can say anything you want. You can't slander. You can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater or 'bomb' on an airplane. Limiting guns is no different. And I countered with the fact that this is comparing apples to oranges. True, laws do restrict the things you can utter. But you can do these things, but you will be arrested if you do. It's completely different. A more accurate comparison is that you are not gagged when entering a theater or plane just because you MIGHT do this. Or, even more accurate, have your tongue removed because you could say something that is not allowed. And besides, the 1st amendment is another in which people have twisted the words to their intent. By "right to free speech" our founders didn't mean freedom of expression, which is not the same and what most people thinks this means. They were talking about delivering public speeches and that the government is not allowed to prevent, abridge, or limit this.
So, after this long-winded recount of this conversation, I come back to why I am disappointed. These co-workers I had this discussion with are what I would consider flag waving, capitalism loving, Americans. If even they have fallen into such thoughts of allowing subjugation for security, as our founders warned of, what hope is left for this republic? Can we ever right this ship?

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 10:17 AM

Reaper308

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SJMB

I struggle with this all of the time... It's depressing

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 17 weeks ago, 11:07 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Reap

Yes it is. I guess I was hopeful, but I really thought that all the lemmings were the minority but just most noticeable and that there was this "silent majority" of people that still get it.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 12:28 PM

bad landing47

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sjmb

It's the constant diatribe from the liberals for gun control that 's been pounded into the heads of ordinary citizens that makes them think that gun restriction is a good thing. Much of the problem with guns is that they get into the hands of people whio don't have the right to carry weapons because they are felons or mental incompentents. Jared Laughner was a wack job by any standards. People he went to school with knew it, the cops knew it but nobody brought him in for mental evaluation even though the cops were at his house multiple times. If guns or ammo were ever banned the Mexican cartels would just have another item to send across the border and sell. And while I am on a rant Howcome when I was in the military I was okay to have full auto weapons and 40mm with HE and WP rounds with me all the time, but have to do all this backround check to buy a 22 rifle? When I was a kid you could go into the local hardware store and buy yourself a 22 rifle and ammo no questions asked. and yes I know that was 50 years ago. In New Mexico when we moved back here and bought a house my wife stayed and I worked in VA for a time so all the utility bills etc. were in her name. You have to show proof of residence to buy a fire arm or get a NM drivers license. The only thing with my name on it was the mortgage deed.Had a hell of a time buying a gun. Couldn't get my Marlin 22 at Walmart because the Feds never responded to my backround check in two trys. Walmart won't sell unless they get the okay from the feds. Finally got the rifle from one of the local gunshops for a bit more money as they can sell after 3 days if no response from the Feds. And one last thing NM gave drivers license to illegals. Our new governor wants to correct that but the democrates in the state legislature block any changes So now the gov has gotten around it by making any questionable people go to Albuquerque for a better backround check to confirm thier info. For years many illegals passed through NM for a license before moving on because it was so easy to get. Now some latino advocate group is sueing because the Mexicans who live in SW New Mexico have to go through a border checkpoint to get to their appointment with theNM DMV. Wow I feel better now

3 years 17 weeks ago, 2:03 PM

Ishootdaily

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Lib's

I tell those who give me grief about carrying and giving CCW classes one thing.

"It's ok, I don't hold it against them that they are afraid and wish to take my gun. I'd still kill or die attempting to save their life even if they didn't want me to..."

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 2:07 PM

tallguy007

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OK

they should be thankful that we do so we can do what WE have TO..............TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 17 weeks ago, 2:38 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Reaper, ISD, TG

How are you all? I finally caught the latest Top Shot. Do you think they have something against women? Although, she did shoot for crap in the elimination.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 2:54 PM

tallguy007

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Top Shot

I have not see it yet have to try on PC.................TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 17 weeks ago, 2:47 PM

luckybychoice

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lemmings

now if the discussion would of turned to buy USA products instead of made in china you could of had that discussion over dessert,and you would of been totally depressed.Fucking lemmings.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 17 weeks ago, 3:15 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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LBC

lol

Yeah. No kidding.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 6:37 PM

Ishootdaily

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no doubt

Bit sick of America selling America out...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 3:19 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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I'm out

I have to sleep in a clinic tonight to find out if I have sleep apnea. I may be cynical, but my Dr. asked me to do this. He is sending me to a center that sells the equipment for sleep apnea patients. And this is where I'm going to find out if I have sleep apnea. Gee, I wonder what they'll discover. It's like going to the snake oil salesman to find out if you need snake oil. :)

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 4:40 PM

tallguy007

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NO SWEAT

Saint J.M. Browning wrote:
I have to sleep in a clinic tonight to find out if I have sleep apnea. I may be cynical, but my Dr. asked me to do this. He is sending me to a center that sells the equipment for sleep apnea patients. And this is where I'm going to find out if I have sleep apnea. Gee, I wonder what they'll discover. It's like going to the snake oil salesman to find out if you need snake oil. :)

Hey I did it, got it,using the the black box, got the nose mask use the water tank as if you do not you will be very thirsty in the morning I was told am 85%.
They wired me up like Frankenstein it was a sleep number bed but they did not tell me so it was like the old days of sleeping on concrete. If you have it do not be a shamed you lady will sleep better and the walls will not rattle any more.........................TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 17 weeks ago, 7:05 AM

Vaquero

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Hopeless?

It aint as bad as you think. You just need to get out of the metro areas. Small town America feels just like we do. The lemmings gravitate to each other, the patriots know each other but value their individualism. Or, maybe its worse than I think. Depends on where you view it from.
I bought new tires the other day, when I requested American made the kid behind the counter looked at me like I had ate a bug. The older guy just gave me my options with a grin. General grabber is a good light truck tire, made in USA. Good price too.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 3:49 PM

CharlesW

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Made in USA

Hey Vaquero,
Whats up dude
Problem there is my Ford truck
was made in Mexico.
Sucks dont it

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
3 years 17 weeks ago, 7:50 PM

Ishootdaily

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Hope everything is going well.

Yeah, Ford and Chevy too....

How did that go "Mom's Apple Pie, Baseball and Chev-a-rightttttt"

My Suburban is made in Canada and Mexico.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 16 weeks ago, 5:19 AM

ronin1604

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American made????

Ishootdaily wrote:
Hope everything is going well.

Yeah, Ford and Chevy too....

How did that go "Mom's Apple Pie, Baseball and Chev-a-rightttttt"

My Suburban is made in Canada and Mexico.

And I have a Hyundai made in Birmingham, AL...... Go figure. LOL!

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 17 weeks ago, 9:20 PM

Larry Wagner

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CW

Hello CW,
Been a long time, How ya doing? Hope all is & has been well..

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 17 weeks ago, 9:48 PM

Ishootdaily

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Hi Larry

hope all is well

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 8:01 AM

Larry Wagner

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Hello ISD

Me & momma are still kicking, so that makes everything OK. LOL
How have you been? Sure hope OK. Been hearing your real busy, That's a good thing.
I'm still waiting on that web site??? & word on a cartridge carrier. Been using the old Bianchi speed strips for years & they work real good (with practice of course) I just HATE anything in my pockets????? Gotta run, Take Care & Be Safe......

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 16 weeks ago, 6:59 AM

Vaquero

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Larry and CW

Howdy guys! Good to see you on. I hope all is well with yall.
That "made in USA" deal is depressing, best I can hope for is to keep the cash on this side of the border, some of it anyway.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 16 weeks ago, 12:00 PM

Larry Wagner

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Howdy Amigo

Yep, I'll be here as much as time permits.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 17 weeks ago, 8:29 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Back to the country

Yeah, I've just about had it with Suburb life. I'm ready to move back to the country. I'll probably wait until my son's out of high school though. Don't want to turn his world upside down just cause I'm sick of Dallas and the pretentious asses here.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 17 weeks ago, 12:36 PM

tallguy007

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Woods

am trying to trans to CO so I get out of the heat of FL and the hell..............TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 16 weeks ago, 10:56 AM

clintlebo

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made in America

I hope y'all realize we are the reason America is selling America out. We, the consumer demand more for our money. If I had the choice of buying the same product at a discount, it would be an easy decision for me. That discount allows my currency to purchase more and thus increase my wealth.
A lot of the problems we as a consumer based economy have are based on competition. There are people out there that can complete jobs for less currency so they acquire the contract. That contract savings is passed on to the consumer which allows them to purchase more with the finite amount of currency they own.
Made in America is an idea. I would love to see more Americans back to work, I have been unemployed for almost 2 years. But I do not want to be forced to use more purchasing power to satisfy the idea of Made in America if my currency can benefit from lower prices. That is Capitalism.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 16 weeks ago, 7:26 PM

luckybychoice

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bang for your buck

i was thinking all day about what you wrote clint of a lesbo,and i got to thinking about my razor choice,SCHICK,made in USA,i go out of my way to buy them.They cost a bit more than the made in china blades but i swear they oulast the china blades 3 to 1,now i know looking at my photos it doesn't look like i shave much of my face but let me say momma likes what i do shave,so i get pussy! 3 to 1,odds are in my favor and that my friend can translate to just about any other made in USA product,
Harley-Davdson= get pussy.Honda=latent homosexual.
Ruger 44 mag=get pussy.Makarov 9x18=cross dressing alcoholic.
Ford F250=get pussy.Subaru=lesbian rug muncher
now you ball draggers that have your hand up saying"wait lucky,HD and Ford ain't made in America anymore, or with lots of jap/china/india/vietfuckingnam parts,all i got to say to that is they are made under license and specifications to American standards set by the US Corporation headquarters.So whats it gonna be,buy American and get the pussy,or be a cheap ass and get the shaft?

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 16 weeks ago, 9:18 AM

Reaper308

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well played

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 16 weeks ago, 7:43 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Made in the USA

lol
Good stuff, LBC! You bring up a good point that I think many consumers have forgotten about. Quality. What good is a pair of sneakers that are $20 if they fall apart in 2 years. When you can get a pair for $40 that last 8.
Also, I've been subject to the argument about American cars made in foreign countries as well. My take on this is, while it sucks those jobs are not in the US, the profit is going to America. And that DOES help America.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 16 weeks ago, 8:22 PM

Anonymous

LBC

very well put!

3 years 16 weeks ago, 3:53 PM

clintlebo

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rebuttal to LBC

Quoted of course:
now you ball draggers that have your hand up saying"wait lucky,HD and Ford ain't made in America anymore, or with lots of jap/china/india/vietfuckingnam parts,all i got to say to that is they are made under license and specifications to American standards set by the US Corporation headquarters.So whats it gonna be,buy American and get the pussy,or be a cheap ass and get the shaft?

And I quote myself:
A lot of the problems we as a consumer based economy have are based on competition. There are people out there that can complete jobs for less currency so they acquire the contract. That contract savings is passed on to the consumer which allows them to purchase more with the finite amount of currency they own.

Your last statement echoed my point. The driving force allowing HD, Ford, John Deere, etc to exist are the negotiated contracts with the labor and supply to dictate the price you see when you enter the showroom. Those negotiated contracts keep the price to the consumer low so the producer can sell their product. American unions are very proud of their "work". They believe they do not need to negotiate with owners of companies to be competitive in the marketplace.
If unions allowed the market to dictate their compensations, more work would stay home and benefit the economy.

We live in a world economy whether you want to acknowledge it or not. If you want to make the argument that buying a Ford gets you laid, then I guess you can do so eloquently.
But comparing a truck to a rally car is a stretch for what they can do, your Ford could not compete in a rally, and the Subaru could not be a tool hauler for construction, or haul anything but ass. Maybe you should compare Ford to Toyota or Nissan.
We all know Harley Davidson is a bike company in business for wanna be baby boomers trying to act and look tough, if that gets you pussy, good for you, but most HD riders are still wannabe baby boomers trying to look tough.
Ruger 44 magnum versus 9mm Makarov is also another stretch, I know you were just typing off the top of your head, oh wait, you were thinking about this all day...anyways, my buddy in OGS preferred a suppressed Makarov to maintain the zero residual presence. I am guessing tier one guys have no problems getting pussy...

That is just off the top of head as I was getting pussy typing from my made in china keyboard with my made in china computer looking at my made in china monitor. All I purchased because they were the least expensive and have lasted for the last 3 years.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 16 weeks ago, 4:13 PM

Vaquero

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clint and LBC

Valid points all around. However, yes clint, it is an "idea", and one I personally hold dear. Just as the idea of self preservation and personal defense.
You just don't get that anywhere but in the "good ol US of A".
If I'm living in a dream world then be quiet, I don't wanna wake up.
Global economy? True, but we still got the keys to the car. (probably hauling ass straight toward a cliff though) Time for a new driver.
I firmly believe in American exceptionalism.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 16 weeks ago, 7:51 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Vaq

Quote:
I firmly believe in American exceptionalism.

Yessir. Me too. And I think once things bottom out it will come around. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe these things are cyclical and you have to hit lows to inspire you to reach the highs.
With all due respect to you, Clint (and I do respect you), you have sound logic and a pragmatic view, and basically you are 100% right (well, maybe 95%), but I will many times do the foolish thing for something I believe in.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 16 weeks ago, 5:10 PM

clintlebo

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I am a hypocrite

SJMB,
The interesting part of my logic is that I will use my currency to purchase what my research leads me to believe is the best. It is extremely hypocritical of me to post the argument because I actually subscribe to LBC's blind devotion argument to "American" goods. The internet and this forum allows me to argue by proxy thus making me sound more intelligent than I really am...

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 16 weeks ago, 9:44 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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As am I

lol, Clint.

I hate hypocrisy, yet there are the occasional times when breaking from convention wisdom and going with your heart is the right thing to do. Love being one of those cases. We don't choose who we love out of logic.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon

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