Forums / Gun Discussion / the infamous can of worms

3 years 29 weeks ago, 9:00 AM

nightfire

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Well other than my cursing with a key board which I admit is stupid and got me erased. I hit a big nerve with the AR vs.AK stuff
All over bullet weight, which I am still a little peeved that people would recommend a 60 grain bullet as a choice for hunting.
Now I'll happily admit I really enjoyed making red mushroom clouds out of squirrels with my 25-06 and maybe I am a bit biased because I love my 45/70
But the word was hunt
meaning for food
Which I'll stop right there before I get really lost on Lactosis

3 years 29 weeks ago, 4:46 PM

luckybychoice

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here's the deal

i don't take kindly to insults to myself or others on this site.This is a good place to discuss topics about most anything but keep it civil,comprende?

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 29 weeks ago, 8:31 PM

nightfire

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am a pogue now

Cause I did get pissed for being called a liar for stating that a bullet that tumbles and breaks up isn't all that good killing.
Then Reaper308 posts the tech data today, confirming my lies
for the record
I was signed up in 09' as well
Way

3 years 29 weeks ago, 8:38 PM

Ishootdaily

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You can twist it as you like.

Everyone who is even the slighest interested will or has already read the series of posts.

Sooner or later as you dig deep enough the dirt doesn't go high enough to land outside the hole anymore and you end up burying yourself. Though most are quick enough to stop digging.

Are you?

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 8:53 PM

nightfire

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the can of worms is on the dirt and by tomorrow it will be empty

good enough?

Here another anomaly

Why is it that my 45/70 is only rated and recommended for deer kills to 150yds

Yet it will lift a 55 gallon drum full of water at 300 yds

and be audible at 800 (Dink!)

3 years 29 weeks ago, 9:10 PM

Ishootdaily

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nightfire

dunno, my great aunt hunted Moose, Bear and Deer with a Winchester 45/70 until she quit hunting and it has been passed down through the family and used for all three by everyone who has possessed it.

I'd question anyone telling me it is not a solid round out beyond 150 yards. Frankly speaking the round is considered an excellent choice for Larger and Dangerous Game up in Maine.

The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879 W. John Farquharson

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:
"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."
The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.

The lineage of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 10:22 PM

nightfire

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Obviously another can of worms.
Most of my knowledge of guns is garnered from rapt attention of old timers with FFLs and repair licenses. I called them my gun Gurus
They or one of them was an xray machine mechanic in the 60's and the other did similar things and thats where the met in the lab.
Just a wee bit smarter than us shooters or me anyways.
So the story goes like this;
Have you ever eaten venison that has been run by dogs?
(I scratch my head and say, Really?)
Well the meat is tough and smells funny and has a peculiar taste.
Its caused by adrenaline
The same goes for that deer that takes off running for you to track the spore and find somewhere
Lactoses- shock, the meat becomes infused in lactate as the body tries to repair itself.

It seems that a quick kill has a little more emphasis on 'quick' and that the 45/70 does not have adequate bullet expansion and velocity for that quick kill past 150 yds
Of course I disagree and would still be going for the shoulder of a bull elk at 300+ yds with a custom 450gr r n fmj

3 years 29 weeks ago, 9:15 PM

Ishootdaily

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nightfire

btw:

Cartridge (Wb + type) MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds
.45-70 (300 HP) 1810 1244 2182 1031
.45-70 (405 FP) 1330 1055 1590 1001

I would feel very secure that it would function very well beyond 350 yards without question and further still if needs be.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 9:36 PM

nightfire

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i like to push the 405 to almost 2200, but have yet to crono it for truth

3 years 29 weeks ago, 9:59 PM

Ishootdaily

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Big Game loads

It can be done, but I wouldn't go any hotter or your pressures are going to exceed max and it will eventually cause problems.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 8:47 AM

nightfire

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overcharge

here is another old timer tidbit for young and dumb reloaders

Start with 3031
since it was designed for the 45/70
it is impossible to over charge a cartridge

I kinda agree as I crunch down a 405fn that you must rotate before seating so as to not ripple the case.

3 years 29 weeks ago, 11:13 AM

Ishootdaily

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45.70 Gov. Load Data

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1565
http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

Here's a tip, do a search and you'll have all the loading data you like.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 7:44 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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45-70 Govt.

As with so many other discussions about this, shot placement is still the key over muzzle velocity, bullet expansion, bullet weight, etc. Same for the 5.56/.223. If you hit a vital organ, they will die.

But I get what you are saying because there are many "conventional wisdoms" now that I question.

In a previous post I mentioned how these days it is apparently impossible to hunt turkey/duck/geese with my old model 11 humpback. It doesn't shoot 3"/3.5" shells. It has a fixed choke. Well, don't tell that to my Dad, uncles, grandfather, great-uncles, etc. that used this or similar scatter guns with those wimpy 2.75" loads and pulled down many ducks and geese. And the occasional turkey, but they didn't hunt them that much.

I hear the same about the .30-30. A few youngsters will tell me it's an "inadequate" round. Well, whipper snappers, that round was THE deer round of its day and, IMO, for forested areas, still is.

But again, the round you choose has to be suited to you. If you choose the small bore high velocity stuff, know that the trade off for the lighter recoil, flatter trajectory means less allowance for error in aim. If you you want big and slow, it drops accuracy, but that's okay because you just need to hit in the area of the vitals and it will destroy something.

I think a lot of these recommendations come from people that realize that many shooters today haven't or rarely shoot beyond the limitations of their indoor range and they don't want a bunch of elk or mulies dragging their entrails or losing jaws, etc.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 29 weeks ago, 11:05 AM

Ishootdaily

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I have my father and it is one of the best brush guns I can think of for hunting Deer.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:01 PM

Anonymous

Lbc

You know I am with you and have your back and now that we are clear may I ask who you are referring too, because I think I was just referred too in the same way. PM if you want. John

3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:09 PM

luckybychoice

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I am referring to

nightfire,but i am assuming it's handled now.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:26 PM

Anonymous

Lbc

That is what I thought you were going to say,I wonder why it has to be that way, for some. but it is in the past like you said now.jlc

3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:33 PM

Ishootdaily

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LBC

Probably, grudgingly at that, but probably....

FNGitus sets in deep sometimes and takes a bit before total eradication.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 8:30 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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ISD

PM

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:37 PM

luckybychoice

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FNGitus

funny and they do get set right don't they,or they just go all General Mcarthur on us and just fade away.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 29 weeks ago, 5:46 PM

Ishootdaily

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Pretty much...

I had a pup once that thought the best place in the world was in the kitchen with the Garbage can dumped all over the floor. Up until the time she spent an hour in that can with the lid on it while I ignored her yelps. Never went near it again, turned out to be really nice having around after that.

lol

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 29 weeks ago, 1:08 PM

tallguy007

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wow shooot

Dats y I got a kitty lol

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