Forums / Strategies, Tactics & Training / Ivantank chan, hug e bear chan, and anyone interested: This is a thread to discuss the Palestinian/Israeli Issue.

Because it is strategy and tactics that are more important that politic. Politic play huge part in subject, Ryo know this, but this thread is to deal with the whys and wherefore and the strategy of how to deal with the situation and how it already is being dealt with by both side. Also strategy of both side include to use thing like politic and media and world opinion as weaponry just like mortar or rocket or assault rifle. So thought best to put here.

Your friend,

LittleDragon

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for this subject..we are but uneducated peoples..the fight that the israilies and the PLO have been fighting..is decades old..i have only questions, i am an american and donot understand the PLO mindset..and i know that there are many factions in play

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ryo live among these people, both the Israeli and the Palestinian and was believe it or not able to make friend with both. and in fact many Israeli and many Palestinian are close friend on personal basis. not all Palestinian are bad. in fact most on the left bank are not. Gaza is another story. all these people are brainwash from birth by Hamas and is most very terrible thing too. Gaza Palestinian is a much different creature than Left Bank Palestinian. this is honto! we will go slow. ryo and little brother will lay out main issues and you can jump in and ask any question you want. cannot guarantee we have answer right away, but our pops is one of best military expert in whole world on subject of PLO/Israeli conflict. we are not here to be teacher, but this is most important issue and so many level it deserve a good thread for discussion. will also be able to learn much about some of most inventive and imaginative weaponry in world today. Israeli weapon makers are among the best in the world if not the best in the world. and company like Raphael and IWI are extremely wealthy and powerful mover and shaker in world of modern small arm and heavy weaponry. Raphael dabble in small arm but they mostly make heavy weaponry. IWI specialize in small arm. btw, understand that IMI and IWI sometime very confusing, but will explain as we go along.

your friends,

LittleDragon and Little Brother

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you are all most very welcome and invited to come and join discussion group here. we look forward to your input too. from time to time my pops and self and little brother will post experiences we have in Israel when we live there too. focus however is on strategic importance of conflict and politic issue while welcome are minor focus of this discussion group.

Your friends,

LittleDragon and Little Brother

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The Palestinians are usually very aware of the power of the media over international opinion, but they have also failed recently to realize what a double edged sword it can become. When the news media shows the Palestinians launching their Katyusha rockets from next to an apartment building, they may have gotten the civilians to leave the immediate area, but people still ask the question of why they would jeopardize innocent lives in the even of a counter battery mission by the Israelis. The Isralis may have calmed down as far as kill 'em all warfare, but their use of air power and artillery is still very liberal compared to most of our allies. They may try to keep the collateral damage down, but they know at the end of the day, which lives are more important to the Israeli people, and that is how it should be.

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My family lived in Israel for many years. My second son was born there. Ryo and Ryu want to have an open discussion with some focus about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. You can trust what they have to say. They have been eyewitnesses to atrocities I could not protect them from. They have seen and experienced the whole range of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict from the inside. They have a unique perspective on the conflict too. Yes of course they favor the Israeli point of view, however, while they were there they made friends with Palestinian children their own age and came to understand the Palestinian point of view as well through these friendships.
They don't want a political discussion here. They want to deal with the strategic aspects of this, and as politics is a part of the strategic view, some of this will come into and that's ok.
I will stop by from time to time and offer some thoughts and comments of my own, but for the most part I would like to leave this to my sons and their friends.

Your friend,
Koji

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That's something that is really hard for any westerner to understand. It's even harder for the Israelis. They are just well flabbergasted by the whole idea of a suicide bomber and the purported reasoning that Hamas and other terrorist groups use to justify these kinds of bombings. The reasoning, if you want to call it that, behind the idea of a suicide bomber is twofold. The first is that they say since they do not have and cannot get things like F16 fighter jets and Apache Longbows and similar types of weapons, they say their "volunteer" suicide bomber are there F16s and their Apache Longbows. That's insane right there. Just by doing it they have already lost not only the war, but moral position they might have had. People who use their children to strap bombs to their asses and have them go out and kill themselves and try and take out as many Jews as they can with them have no moral position to stand upon. The second reason is hope. They really hope that if they do it long enough, it will eventually work. Well this has been going on since 1947, and it hasn't worked yet. Are the Palestinians any better of today than they were in 1947? Not at all. In fact they are worse off now than ever before. It's also interesting to note that slowly, slowly they are losing the support of both the international media and Europe. I have friends in France who are just about ready to openly side with the Israelis after decades of long standing support for the relief of the Palestinians. Even Europe has had a bellyful of Palestinian terror. That's something new in the equation now isn't it?

Koji

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It truly amazes me the good hearted souls that belong to this forum. You are without doubt one of them. I could name so many others too. I'm the father of two wonderful boys. Btw, my younger boi actually supported Obama for President. I know! Sounds crazy, but he did. Now already, I mean it hasn't been that long, but already the President has lost my second son's support. The bow to the King of Saudi Arabia took care of that. My boy was angry! He could not believe it when he saw it. When the President of the United States walks into ANY room any where, everyone stands, including the President, and Prime Ministers, kings, monarchs and princes and even the Pope. And my boys bow! They have of their own choosing taken up many of their Nihongo heritage ways and customs. The love the idea that there are ways and ways of bowing too. Nihongi bow to each other instead of shaking hands. It's not an act of subservience in the Nihongi culture. It is interesting to note that you can bow in a way that is a polite hello and bow in another way that means, your mother sucks dicks in hell! They often do this at school and nobody is the wiser too! The President of the United States is the Leader of the Free World and the world knows it. It's not the man. It's the office. From that moment my younger boy became so disillusioned about our President, that he felt betrayed. I wonder how many other young people out there felt the same as my second son?

Ivan, I really wish it were as simple as stopping the rocket attacks. If that were so the Israelis could easily, if rather violently, take care of that. It's all so very complicated right down to the idea of the Palestinian demand for a contiguous state. That means a swath of land that would be theirs and under their control that would permanently connect the West Bank settlements to the Gaza strip. There are so many problems involved with just that, it's an impossible demand the Israelis not only won't could could never agree to. If you know the area, that swath of land would have to cut Israel in half and leave it with two separate pieces of land. It would also cut right through a very large military base and a large commercial airport. So it's just out of the question. The Palestinians demand all, or short of that a large portion of Jerusalem for their capitol. That's never going to happen either. The Israelis will never give up one square inch of Jerusalem. Several of their administrations even considered it and they were voted out of office so quickly the leaders didn't realize what happened to them before they found themselves out of power and ordinary citizens again.
It's a huge mess fraught with tricks and traps and subtlety that would boggle the mind of even Socrates. Other issues include things like is Hamas really a terrorist organization and the Palestinians think it's a humanitarian organization and there is believe it or not, good reason for them to believe this! The government there has no money and has very little ability to raise money. Welfare, food, rice, drinking water, medicine, these are all provided, not by the elected government, but by guess who? That's right. Hamas. We know where they get their money from and sooner or later this very big problem is going to have to be dealt with in some way.

Koji

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I suppose you have heard by now, that I'm the only member or our family that was born overseas. I was born in Tel Aviv in Israel in 1994. I just turned 15. I'm a normal American citizen of course because I was born to my mom and dad, just overseas, and my dad was on loan to the IDF from our government at the time. I was born during the Intifada. Years later when we went back there again, this time to stay for two years, I actually made friends with some of the boys who were known as, The Children of the Rock. The Intifada and the second Intifada were grass roots "happenings" that were led by children. These children would throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers. The government and the PLO and Hamas and Hezbolah had nothing to do with it. It was an uprising led by children. They did it themselves and it caused more havoc among the Israelis than a full scale war. The Israelis were in a bad situation too because they didn't want to shoot little boys in the streets. Even though under the Rules of Engagement of the Geneva Convention, if a child picks up a weapon and uses it that child is no longer a child but a combatant and therefore a legitimate target. But what person of any humanity at all would want to shoot and kill little boys in the streets. And btw, they were little boys too. Not their older brothers. These boys were aged anywhere from 6 to 16 but few if any were older. I saw it for myself. Finally it got so bad the Israelis began to use rubber bullets, except they found out you can kill a small boy with a rubber bullet. Then they tried tear gas, and somehow that didn't work too well either. The boys would take off their head scarves and soak them in urine and wrap these around their faces and it made an effective gas mask against the tear gas. Then the orders came down to crack down. If a boy threw a rock the Israeli soldiers would seize them and break their arm. Then send them to an Israeli hospital to have their arm set and put in a cast too. If the boy threw two rocks then they would break both of his arms. This eventually became effective. But there were thousands upon thousands of Palestinian boys walking around proudly displaying their casts and they took upon themselves the title, The Children of the Rock. But eventually both of the Intifadas were stopped, but it left scars on those kids who many have grown up with hate in their hearts, but by many I don't mean the vast majority at all.
The vast majority of Palestinian children are just as bewildered by the war as we are here in the states. They make friends with Jewish boys and they love to compete at foot races which is like a national sport for Palestinian boys. And also soccer, which oddly enough, they call it soccer in Palestine instead of football like most foreign countries do. The Israelis call it football, but the Palestinian boys always called it soccer.
It's amazing isn't it? Did you know that so many of these boys who were the Children of the Rock were also close friends with Jewish boys their own age? It was the soldiers they hated and feared. It also never seemed to occur to them that these childhood friends of theirs would grow up and by law in Israel, everyone is a soldier, both men and women alike. Even the handicapped are not exempt if they can function at all. As long as you are not a complete vegetable, you are obligated to military service in Israel. If I were to go back and exercise my Israeli citizen ship then I too, even though I'm an American would be obligated to military service. By the way, this is my back up plan if I can't get into West Point then I plan to go to the Military Air Force Academy in Israel and get my college degree there and then of course I would be obligated to a 5 year term with the Israeli Air Defense Force. I would be proud to do so too, even though I really have my heart set on West Point. I what to be a helicopter pilot just like my dad.

Send it!

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My aniki chan (elder brother) LittleDragon was right about you and I've seen it for myself even before I became a member here. I would sit at the desk with my brother and watch him interact with the people here. It seemed he got off to a rocky start, but he's just a charming and friendly and loving and caring guy that even the two people who hurt him he made friends with and now they are all good friends and often see eye to eye on many issues and ideas. I know that I have also learned a lot here too. It so very nice that an adult like yourself can be so open minded to even listen to kids like us. You seem so genuinely interested in the contributions we make here and some of our ideas and the wonderful bits of military science that my brother comes up with. That story he wrote about for the introduction to our coming article on the Bionix II system is the real deal. That's exactly how it happened. He first showed me a the picture of the Singaporean Bionix II IAV and I thought, well it sure doesn't look like much and it's undersized and has a very undersized main gun. But after reading the first draft of his article, I was just stunned. That system is a monster! Bionix II is a killing machine and Singapore now has over 1600 of them of all types and makes of the system. I was just amazed at the power and accuracy and range of the that up-gunned Bushmaster 30mm that can fire a dozen different types of rounds for just about any battlefield need is so extraordinary. It's definately a better machine than our M2 and M3 Bradleys and our Marine Corps LAVs and I think it's a better system than the Stryker too, but the Stryker and the LAVs are wheeled vehicles and the Bionix II is a tracked vehicle so it's hard to make fair comparisons. But that Busmaster 30 with it's air bursting round capability is a real killer. And that's not all Bionix II can bring. But I'll save the good stuff for the article.
God bless you Ivan and your family. You are a great friend and it's an honor for me and my older brother to be counted among your friends.

Send it!

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Ryo chan just asked me to send out another invitation for all of you to come and join in the discussion here. This issue in this discussion has a twofold focus and we want to stay away from politics as much as possible, even though of course political comments are allowed, it's just that we wish to focus on the strategic ideas and importance of the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict issue here.
If somebody else would like to start a political discussion group about this issue then I'm very sure the forum would appreciate that too. But here there are strategic issues to discuss. The secondary focus will be on the historical issues involved in this ongoing tragedy that has reached proportions that can only be called insensate. Imagine what must have been in the hearts of decent and God loving Jews who under orders and understanding that everything else they tried was either too dangerous as was the case with the rubber bullets that were not supposed to kill the boys but wound up killing quite a few of them anyway to many other things they tried to stop these children's riots in the streets. Imagine understanding that having to break the arm or maybe even both arms of a small boy just to keep him from being able to throw a rock, or worse, because often they got their hands on handgrenades too. So no chances could be taken. They also threw molotov cocktails and some of them had AK 47s and these were all Palestinian children aged between 6 and 16, during the 1st and 2nd Intifadas. And keep in mind that even Yasser Arafat was astonished and caught completely by surprise by this children's uprising that came to be known as the Intifada. The boys also proudly called themselves, The Children of the Rock.

Send it!

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if would like could you please join in discussion here now ka ryo and little brother send it boi have some thing would like to discuss and get feedback from you all and anyone else who wish to come and join in discussion is also very welcome.
ivan chan make comment earlier about how sad the story that little brother tell about the Intifada was. he very right too. would like to discuss Intifada and some other thing about conflict of region you all might find interesting. we hope so at least. if you interest then come to topic and sign in and say you here so we can begin. dozo.

Also want say again that everyone is invite so if not see name on subject list it just because not enough room to put but all are invite.

from your friends,

LittleDragon and Send it Boi

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Little brother is much better at communicate and write than is ryo so it be easier for everyone to understand. but ryo will be sit right next to and will also participate.

your friends,

LittleDragon and Send it Boi

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But the rest of you please come. We hope you will find this interesting. I was 9 and Ryo chan was 10 at the time and we had only been home in the states from the Philippines for just 2 months when our dad got a call from the Pentagon and he was asked if he would chose a special team and go into Israel and help deal with a specific problem for the Israeli IAWC. That's the Israeli Air Wing Command group. These people are an open secret as it were. One of their best Commando Team Leaders had been captured alive by Hamas in Gaza City and our dad was asked to pick a team and take a VIP hostage negotiator into the Gaza strip and try to negotiate for the release of the VIP Commando Officer. He was offered however much money and supplies and logistics and the choice of any people he wanted for his team. Since this is or rather was, since he's retired now, our dad's specialty and even though I'm his son and I'm a little prejudiced in favor of dad, it is true that he was once considered the best in the business at what he did.
He chose men he was used to work with and he decided to take us along instead of leaving us at home. Our mother had only been dead for about a little more than a year at the time and to be honest Ryo chan and myself were having a pretty rough time because of the loss of our mother. It would have been just too hard on Ryo chan to be left behind and well to be honest it would have been pretty much the same for me. So we packed our bags and drove out to the local muni, that's a municipal airport, that is not far from where we live and dad checked out the plane and we flew to Washington DC. The next day his team and supplies were ready and we got onto a C 5 transport with the team and their equipment and our dad at the controls of the plane and we flew from DC to the air port at Tel Aviv making a couple of in flight refueling hookups along the way. It was a very long flight too, but the men were all fairly young and many of them knew me and my brother. and they went out of their way to keep us entertained and from feeling scared. By the way, we were well used to this sort of thing by that time and we were not really scared at all. We were also well aware of what our dad did and the dangers involved. Remember we'd just gotten back from a stint in the Philippines and the abu sayaf are much more dangerous and better equipped and organized than Hamas.
Upon our arrival at Tel Aviv my brother and I were taken to a secure base inside the armored perimeter of the city. It was still in the school year and so Ryo chan and I were assigned a tutor and we began our studies the next day. But that night a senior lady Colonel whom we knew really well for some time before then, briefed our dad on the mission and offered him the very best of her elite commandos some of whom our dad knew well. at one point they came and asked Ryo chan to come and join the meeting. Ryo is a very gifted boi and it was well known to these people and his opinions and ideas were taken seriously. our dad likes to include Ryo whenever he can, just because Ryo can really step up to the plate and swing with the heavy hitters when it comes to things like planning and logistics and what types of weaponry might be needed etc. As hard as this maybe to believe, it is true. But dad often did this just to make sure Ryo was ok, especially at that time because Ryo was having a much harder time dealing iwth the loss of our mother, because of the CP.
Anyway he was only asked a few questions and then escorted back to the suite they had for us at the base. I found out later that he was asked if he though a parachute drop or helicopter insertion would be best for the operation. he said helicopter and gave his reasons which as it turned out was alread the choice they had made and for the same reasoning too.
The Israelis needed their officer back badly and knew that because he was of such high rank and experience that Hamas would torture him and use drugs on him to try and get information from him. But these men and women of that outfit are trained to resist such tactics, but it was a matter of time. How long could he last. That sort of thing.
The next night they left with negotiator and 3 days later they came back with the captured commando and nobody hurt on the team.
A few days after that, our dad drove us to Jerusalem and we stayed there with friends waiting for our dad's next assignment. That didn't take very long. It was only about a week before the lady Colonel from the IAWC came knocking at the door with a file of papers in her briefcase and half a dozen armed guards. It was a holiday for a couple of days at the time and so we were outside playing with friends.
And those friends were 3 Jewish bois our own age and 4 Palestinian bois also about our own age too. We were running and laughing and playing a game they call ditch 'em which is an elaborate kind of hide and go seek which is lots of fun to play.
Yes, Palestinian kids and Jewish kids do play together and laugh together and make good friends.
I'd like to beging the discussion with asking you guys this question. If the kids can play together and get along together, what happens to them when they grow up and pick up rifles and rockets instead of baseballs and soccer balls. What do you guys think?

Your friends,

Send it! and LittleDragon

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we're having a lively discussion about the strategic importance of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that is from a little different viewpoint than you might be used to since my brother and myself actually lived there. Even though I'm an American of Japanese descent I was born in Tel Aviv in Israel in 1994.

Send it!

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so...where are we in the discussion?

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Why don't you start up at the top and read down to catch up while I make the next post. If that's ok with you. Btw, Ironkoji is our father. LittleDragon is my older brother and I'm Send it Boi, but my real name is Ryu.

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Hi Lyle san,

We're having an interesting discussion about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Since Ryo chan and I have actually lived there, I was born in Tel Aviv too, btw, it's a discussion with a little bit of a different take on these things than you might be used to. And no we're not a bunch of liberal freaks either ;) LOL

Your friends,

LittleDragon and Send it!

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What make the kids go from being friends with the Jewish kids to being they enemies ka.

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You hit the focus of our discussion tonight right on the head!

Your friends,

Send it Boi and LittleDragon

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is very effective against sheeple

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Victor just made in two lines the focus of our discussion tonight. It's very well put too in just 2 lines close to the bottom of the page.

Your friends,

Send it Boi and LittleDragon

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brainwash them to hate the Jews just because they and Jews and not PLO. I know a lot has to do with religon to.

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Propaganda and Sheeple? I know what propaganda means, but sheeple is a bit odd to me sir.

Your friend,

Send it!

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its similar to the situation in parts of africa. these asshole terrorists fill these little impressionable kids heads with garbage and get them to go out and do their dirty work for them. cowardice at its most extreme

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the post would be interested in what you think about this.

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Times change. Hamas and Hezbolah have more real control now than the PLO. With the death of Yasser Arafat, the power of the PLO has basically fallen apart. It's still there, but splintering day by day as Hamas takes more and more control.

Your friends always,

LittleDragon and Send it Boi

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