Forums / Political & Legal / LET'S TALK OPEN CARRY[OC] VERSUS CONCEALED CARRY[CC]-------AGAIN!!!

4 years 42 weeks ago, 11:24 AM

LLE

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It's Sunday morning, and I just got the urge to bug the crap out of all my friends, here. So at the risk of Mr. runnaway's wrath, and others of you who think we are beating a dead elephant-- here we go.

You might think that because I am doing this, I want to argue one over the other. No, not at all. My personal preference is to live in a state that recognizes both of these second ammendment rights.....like in Pennsylvania, where if you are fishing with a legal license, you can OC, even if you have no other permit or license.

I recently had a discussion with a friend, who has been a shooter since his young days on a west Texas ranch. He, and many others, prefer OC, because, they BELIEVE the "average" BG will see that hogsleg on your hip, and decide to go no further. What's wrong with that "belief"? The average BG is a person you likely will never encounter, because he is a myth, and yet he sets up a theory that 50% of the BGs are "below average" and the other 50% are "above average"---in probable intent to attack. Question: Are you going to "bet on the come"?; that is, are you going to fool yourself into believing that you will never be cased and then attacked by anyone but a below average BG?? Are you going to perhaps risk your life or the life of someone else on that basis!!?? I hope to heavens, NOT. The above average BG is not going to be intimidated by your hogsleg, unless he knows you are a fast draw artist/shooter almost as good as, say a Bob Munden. And that BG covets your handgun, as well as your money,etc.
Now consider the well trained, well practiced CC defender. He has no theory of the "average" BG, and he is not losing his element of surprise, because no potential attacker really knows if he IS one of those semi-lethal CC guys. The CC defender is in condition Yellow, and goes to condition Orange when events tell him there is potential for bad things starting to emerge. He deals REALISTICALLY with what is emerging, as effectively as his know-how permits, instead of subconsciouly being lulled into unreadyness, because of the belief in a dangerously in-valid theory.

Have I bored you, or pissed you off? Fast forward to the DOJ/FBI crime statistics by state. Remember, I am not arguing against OC per se......I would love to have that right in my own state, and use it when I felt it was useful or necessary. I AM arguing against ignorance and stupidity in potentially lethal self-defense situations.
If you look at the latest available crime stats, you see some VERY interesting things. Contrary to what a retired Texas Supervisory Deputy Sheriff told my friend --"it's a known fact that states that have open carry have a much lower crime rate than those that don't"--- the statistics by state do NOT support that statement at all.
I am not about to review all of those stats, and bore the crap out of y'all. But here is a good example that hopefully will disabuse those of you who believe OC would save your ass faster than CC.
From DOJ/FBI Stats--2007[ Latest I could find]--
Of the nine [9] highest crime states plus District of Columbia, seven[7] are OC jurisdictions.
All seven OC jurisdictions SIGNIFICANTLY exceed the average USA crime rate for Property crime, and five[5] of the seven, significantly exceed the average USA crime rate for Violent crime.
I hope that this may be a start in stimulating rethinking of the subject.

FLAME SUIT IS ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 42 weeks ago, 12:13 PM

Schuyler

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Washington's legislature had a Californicate-type bill in committee this year and I did some research on crime stats. Without looking it up, California's gun crime stats are 2.4 times higher than Washington's. Both CC and OC are rare in Californis and, of course, there are all kinds of restrictions on semi-autos. Basically no one can get a CC. Contrast Washington, which is a 'will issue' CC state and also allows OC.

My point to my legislators was, of course, the vast disparfity between crime stats between the two states. You can't prove cause and effect here, but you CAN say that retrictive laws do not deter crime.

As far as the topic, I favor CC myself, both for the element of surprise and the hassle factor of do gooders wanting to argue with me. With those two elements out of the equation the situation is just easier.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
4 years 42 weeks ago, 10:21 PM

LLE

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The general crime rate stats for both states also bear out what you have said. As an example, the murder rate in CA is about two times that of WA, and the conglomerate Violent crime rate in CA is a little less than two times that of WA.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 42 weeks ago, 12:23 PM

Pkato

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No argument from me

I actually agree with something you wrote in your info above...I would like to live in a state where OC and CC were both permissable and then I have the choice to do what I feel is best for me, on any particular day, any particular circumstance or location. I like being as free as possible to choose my own course of action, regardless of what is happening around me.

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
4 years 42 weeks ago, 10:27 PM

LLE

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first sentence. It was as though you got a big surprise, agreeing with something I said. I do not remember any earthshaking disagreements, me with you or vice-versa. And I agree completely with your sentiments written above. Thank you.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 42 weeks ago, 5:41 PM

raffycanlas

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open carry not allowed here, so i carry a glock 23, if open carry was allowed, id carry a glock 21

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
4 years 42 weeks ago, 3:35 PM

HampsterW

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Utah allows both, but I agree with Schuyler, having a long barrel 44 mag. straped to your leg is an invitation to every tree hugging liberal in a ten mile radius to accost you and give you grief.

I have actually had people call the law because I had my ruger in open carry out in the west desert here in town, fortunately all that was required was an official explaination from the law and nothing came of it. This is the kind of unwanted attention OC can attract.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 42 weeks ago, 5:27 PM

photobear6

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I prefer CC

nothing like the look on there face when they think you're reaching for your wallet and Hello whats that in your hand. The look on there face is priceless but the smell of them shitting themselfs isn't so great. Open carry just attracts to much attention and lets the bad guys know what you have and gives them a edgebecause they'll pull there weapon before hand.

America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at the Mall. If you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front of them!
4 years 42 weeks ago, 5:56 PM

Reaper308

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CCW for me

I like the idea of beiing able to carry openly to practice our rights, and not let the ignorant forget about the 2nd amendment.... but for realistic purposes, CC is the safer way to carry and it gives you the tactical advantage.

scenerio: A perp is going to knock off the 7/11 at all costs to get his next fix and he's armed... as soon as he sees someone carrying openly he'll likely take them out. He has the advantage. He's coming into the store knowing that he's armed and that he's going to commit a crime. The person thats carring openly has no idea whats about to happen and is taken by suprise, therefore the perp has the advantage.

On the other hand, if the perp runs into the store, doesn't see anyone carring, he'll probably go straight for the clerk and register so he can get out as fast as possible. Now the person carring concealed has the advantage. The perp already did a quick visual scan, doesn't think anyone is a threat, and now has his attention deverted to the clerk. Advantage good guy CCW.

I too like state laws that allow for both because If I'm out in rural areas or in the desert or up north in the mountains, I carry openly the whole time. Here in the city, I CCW. If I don't have a pistol on me, which I do 85-90% of the time, I always have one concealed in the truck not far away. I know it won't do a lot of good in the truck in most cases, but it beats not being armed at all.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
4 years 42 weeks ago, 6:12 PM

CharlesW

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through the front of a rstraunt and starts shooting.
One of the coustomers had left her gun in her car
because of gun ban. Her mother was killed
South Texas?

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 42 weeks ago, 8:52 PM

Vaquero

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If memory serves me correctly.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 42 weeks ago, 10:33 PM

CharlesW

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It was in Killeen ( you were close)
22 dead 20 wounded
shooter was wounded by DPS then committed suicide

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 42 weeks ago, 6:36 PM

Schuyler

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and I believe was a state legislator herself. The YouTube vid of her testimony is on here somewhere

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
4 years 42 weeks ago, 6:51 PM

zx12rmike

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I tend to agree more with open carry, and have a back up. The minute everyone starts to OC, the BG will start figuring on a way to disarm the good guy.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 42 weeks ago, 10:51 PM

greg az

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keep changing my mind on which is preferable.. Don't want to do the fence sitting thing.. Seems like we have a Pres who is good at obstaining when the issues hot.. (remember O's votes in Illinois).. Bottom line to me is that its enviromental in the first degree.. eg.. my little rural community of Peeples Valley AZ.. pop 500..give or take a geezer or two.. Were surrounded by ranch country.. Horse country, and about as deverse a pop as Idaho.. So around here i see (and do everyday) a LOT of OC. Now if we were down in the City of Phoenix, and this happens a couple three times a month.. Nope diffrent story.. AZ has above average gun laws, but as its been pointed out, your A) target for libs. B) target for BG's.. So i always CC in the valley... up here, its so common.. i just mexican carry half the time..Drop a piece in my back pocket and out the door....

Ok guys.. bonzo's bed time...later all..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 42 weeks ago, 10:57 PM

CharlesW

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I strap on a gun belt when I'm out working on the
property, mowing etc, I never know when I'm going
to come up on a Ferrell hog or a copper head.
But that's only when on my place, in public I CC

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 42 weeks ago, 6:45 AM

luckybychoice

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cops

open carry all over the country,they come in contact with BG all day long,not a very high incidence of cops being jumped and their guns taken away in relation to the amount of contact they have with BG daily,which is way higher than most any civillian will contact a BG in a lifetime,that said,you are assuming that the OC person straps on a gun and wanders around in condition white,probably not the reality as anyone that OC or CC carrys has accepted a higher degree of responsibility for that weapon and their surroundings.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 42 weeks ago, 8:02 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

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cops

Cops also (very generally speaking) have armor, backup guns, sticks, spray, Tasers, and radios with which to call similar individuals to their aid. Any crook with 2 brain cells to rub together also knows that assaulting a cop carries a higher penalty, not to mention the ire of the 'largest gang in the US'. Uniformed officers have to wear their distinctive uniform, so if they carried concealed it wouldn't be much of an advantage.

Many 'civilians' (cops are civilians too) don't have any of the above advantages, so they should take every inch they can get. Proper concealed carry gives you the advantage of surprise.

The only way I'm for OC is when a state has no reasonable provision for CC. I could very easily OC, but choose to CC, even when I'm on my own property.

4 years 42 weeks ago, 3:47 PM

runawaygun762

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Here in Arizona, open and concealed carry refer to weapons, not just handguns. I've checked. So legally speaking, I can walk down the street with my M4 slung in front and my Saiga strapped to my back with all three Glocks on my belt. While I have thought about doing it, I don't like the idea of being proned out by cops who are anti-gun losers. That previous paragraph really has no bearing on the discussion, just thought it was cool. If I am with a group, or even just one more person, open carry is fine as far as I'm concerned. The likelihood (is the 'e' in the right place there?) of being held up, attacked, mugged, or confronted in a way that would justify presentation or use of deadly force is already not high for normal citizens. I don't carry a gun because I'm expecting trouble, just like I don't have a fire extinguisher and aid bag in my truck because I am expecting a fire or mass casualty event, and I don't have renter's insurance because I expect to have my apartment damaged or destroyed. I do/have all these things just in case. If I have already beaten the odds that say I am probably not going to be a victim of violent crime, I don't want to challenge the odds that say I probably won't be confronted by an intelligent, brave criminal. I carry open every so often, just so other people see there are armed citizens walking around, but for the most part, I think open carry is the mark of an amateur or someone who just started carrying. Open carry provisions are good so if I do accidentaly sweep aside my covering garment (Not likely, since I wear shorts and t-shirts almost exclusively here, no matter the temperature), I won't be charged with brandishment or whatever the legal term is. States that have provisions for both have the right idea. But in the majority of social settings, discretion is the better part of self defense, and open carry can only bring negative attention. I also think the fear of not knowing who is packing what is a very good thing to maintain. I am convinced that another mass shooting, or several simultaneously, is a tactic that will be used by islamic terrorists and, although it's hard to blend in with my choice of either American flag ball cap or bare head with my high and tight flattop, I'd rather give myself a better chance of not being the first targeted, thus allowing me to respond more effectively that a mall cop. Okay, so that's the (I think) well reasoned, rational argument. No for the flaming. LLE, why haven't you offed yourself, you worthless, senile old coot? Nobody gives a shit about your inane ramblings and holier-than-thou attitude, gramps!! Okay, I didn't mean any of that, I respect (Though don't always agree with) LLE's opinions and arguments. But he said bring on the flame. What, HE STARTED IT!!!.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 41 weeks ago, 5:21 PM

LLE

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we smoked you out, and you "produced". I think we got some really good responses including yours, and once more demonstrated that we have some very smart people here.
Why would I off myself, when I am having so much fun?! LMBFAO

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
4 years 42 weeks ago, 3:49 PM

raffycanlas

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one question with ccw

if i wear an iwb holster and just a tshirt and you can obviously tell theres a gun underneath my shirt, is still ccw? lol

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
4 years 41 weeks ago, 6:50 PM

Vaquero

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OC or CC

Right place right time, wrong place wrong time.
Hell, I just don't know.
I would just rather be totin' when TSHTF.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 29 weeks ago, 1:02 AM

Model29Lover

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Although, I do agree that we should do our best to make "carrying open" commonplace, as to make visible our constitutional 2nd amendment right, I would also caution individuals. There is definitely 2 sides of the coin in play here. What I am saying is, either one is going place one's self first and keep the tactical advantage by concealing, thereby not openly advocating gun rights by open carrying; or one will put their person at a tactical disadvantage for the good of the society at large, by openly carrying their weapon in an attempt to sway popular opinion. When I say sway opinion, I mean people will make an assumption that you look normal, so the demonization of gun owners hopefully lessens. Now, if one has no formal training like the military or FRONTSIGHT training, then I suggest one gets some before open carrying. I think one should get the training anyway, regardless of open or conceal carry, for the record. Carrying a firearm only puts one on equal terms with a potential assailant; training can put one ahead if one utilizes the muscle memory of that training and the principles of proper mindset in a life/death situation. I know of guys who trained in the top 10 percent, but let fear take over when the time came to apply their training; the moral of this is to expect fear, just don't fail to act in spite of it. "Just knowing" how to react in the midst of fear usually only occurs for people who have training to fall back on when their bodies want to lock up in fear!!!! How many conceal carry holders have the training they will need? I encourage everyone to go to Frontsight if you can, I know I will. Anyway, this topic has no definite answer one way or the other. Some may conceal carry, and organize pro-gun rallies and NRA dinners, and open carry individuals may only just open carry to furthur gun rights. I am not saying if you do this, then that means this. I am saying train, train, train, and make up your own mind. I just wish every state had the laws in place for people to have the right to choose!!!

"It is the unconquerable nature of man and not the nature of the weapon he uses that ensures victory." - Patton "He has not learned the lesson of life, he who does not every day surmount a fear" -Ralph Waldo Emerson
4 years 29 weeks ago, 9:12 AM

CharlesW

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In the event you open carry and are in a gas station
about to be robbed and you open carry, who do you
think will get shot first?
Mabe you will still get the drop on the suspect by being
turned just enough that your weapon isn't seen.
Just something to think about in training. Turn your weapon
away from the action.
Sorry I had to say something here about open carry.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 29 weeks ago, 6:51 AM

ivantank

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in the post. and I fully agree with them. I am a novice gun owner and went through all the proper steps in training. I rather like the option of concealed carry. I practice everyday removing my weapon from its holster...i wear a shoulder rig..my worst fear would be to fumble my gun should it be necessary to pull it....training can't get enough but i hope i never have to use it.

I have reasons for the things I do, just don't expect them to be reasonable
4 years 29 weeks ago, 2:57 PM

Model29Lover

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Reply to CharlesW

Going back to my post I admit that, I lose a certain tactical advantage utilizing open carry. However, I want law-abiding citizens to feel comfortable seeing guns being carried by other law-abiding citizens and am willing to take that risk! While I am well trained, one just never knows how a situation will unfold regardless of the degree of concealment. I agree with what you said, that it would be a good tactic to use one's body to block your weapon being viewed in the event of a gas station robbery or any robbery until you had the best opportunity to get the drop on the assailant. Also, if one looks like an off duty police officer, like I do, then it is possible the robbery might not occur! That is just speculation like all our scenarios, but sometimes people will make that assumption. Thanks for that advice on that tactic, I will utilize it.

"It is the unconquerable nature of man and not the nature of the weapon he uses that ensures victory." - Patton "He has not learned the lesson of life, he who does not every day surmount a fear" -Ralph Waldo Emerson
4 years 29 weeks ago, 3:03 PM

Model29Lover

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reply to Ivantank

Every time you practice you give yourself a better chance to come out on top in a life/death situation due to the muscle memory. I don't use a shoulder rig, but am going to buy a bianchi x-15 soon. One can become fast on the draw with 'em and one lessons the chance of bumping into things. That being said, I have always loved quick draw from the side and am partial to that style of draw! Thanks for your generous comments.

"It is the unconquerable nature of man and not the nature of the weapon he uses that ensures victory." - Patton "He has not learned the lesson of life, he who does not every day surmount a fear" -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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