Forums / Gun Discussion / New AR-15 Varmint - Bull barrel

3 years 19 weeks ago, 7:56 PM

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Alright, show and tell again. Just picked up 2 of these from my local shop (FFL'd GB.com). The deal was so good, my buddy wanted one too, that's why two.

It's a DPMS AR with the 20" Bull barrel. Basically a varmint rifle I believe. It came with the bipod, $80 scope that has decent reviews, a Pmag, and a hard case.

I figured out how to remove the butt stock, but does anyone know how to and how much it would cost to change the buffer tube assembly so I can use an adjustable butt stock???

Thx men.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 8:50 PM

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nice grant

can't go wrong with magpul http://store.magpul.com/prod_detail_list/4

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 11:22 PM

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LBC,

I'm definitely putting a Magpul stock on there, but the actual buffer tube on this rifle is for 'fixed stock' only. I need to put an actual different buffer tube assembly on, then the maggie goes on over that.

I may start by taking the rifle over to my favorite local shop.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 3:21 AM

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Grant

just give the people at Magpul a call,they will walk you thru the process for changing out your buffer tube to fit whatever stock you want.

your going to need a good vise and a new castle nut and do not put loctite on,just stake the castle nut,good luck.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 18 weeks ago, 5:10 PM

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Updated Pic with Magpul PRS stock, scope reconfigured, and 20 rd Magpul Mags.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj77/grant22_2000/Guns%20R%20Good/CIM...

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 6:30 AM

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Grant

You suck. Not because you actually suck, but because you got some great rifles and I'm jealous. You basterd. ;)

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 9:11 AM

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Have you been hanging around with my GF? She'd tell you I actually DO suck! ;)

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 11:50 PM

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Get some 10 rounders, make it easier to sight in the scope / for when your bench shooting.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 1:03 AM

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Agreed, a couple 10 rounders for sure. Then I won't have to extend the legs so far on the bipod.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 10:17 AM

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grant

first pick out a buffer tube (there are tons out there)...
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=buffer+tube/t=P/ksubmit=y/f_a=1/P...

Personally, I like VLTOR's
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26608/Product/CAR_15_M4_MIL_SPEC_RECE...

They are threaded on the end, so they screw in. It may take a vise or something to secure the lower to get it good and tight. What ever buffer tube assembly you go with, make sure to note whether its mil spec or commercial depending on your lower. Tubes come in two sizes (mil spec is 1.148" or close, commercial is 1.168 or close). You'll need to order a stock that fits your tube. Most stocks are offered in commercial and mil spec sizes.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 10:36 AM

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reaper/buffer tubes

both tubes mil and comercial both have the same thread dont they?if not ive been told wrong by everyone till now.never heard of lowers having to use mil or comercial.i chose mil for availability of parts myself.i am curious if you can use a comercial tube in a mil butstock though they say it wont work my mil/mil set seems just loose enough to handle the extra 2/100"

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 10:41 AM

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jay

yes, you can use either on the majority of lowers. I didn't mean to imply that certain lowers take one or the other... just that the stocks do fit one or the other.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 10:44 AM

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wheeeeew! thanks for the clarification,that was blowing my mind.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 2:49 PM

grant22

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Cool. Thanks guys for the tips. I'm going with the Magpul PRS (precision rifle sniper). Nice thing is it will use my existing buffer tube and is easy to install. I'll post pics when I get it and install it.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 4:03 PM

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good pick

for that rifle.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 19 weeks ago, 4:50 PM

Anonymous

Lbc

Did you see snakes picture, nostalgic, Did you land early in nam from china beach ? Just guessing and I do not think so but?

3 years 19 weeks ago, 8:20 PM

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JLC

I was not in Nam,just in the Marines for the fall of Saigon,april 1975,i was a sentry at the camps we built for the Vietnamese refugees for a few months,although i had lots of interaction wth the refugees it was just to help them, i saw a lot of them getting the VIP treatment.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 12:14 PM

Anonymous

LBC

Sorry, for late and misunderstanding. When you mentioned my age and all, I thought you meant how could I have been there, or something like that. No big deal. You are younger than me, so I understand now. But it seemed we traveled the same routes. Boot was ft dix, then AIt was German, then FT Learnwood Missouri, and to california, to never never land, by plane, not sea. Just wondered what routes you took. Thailand was a good base orfor airstrip bombers and such just when I was about over with it. JC Sorry for lateness and misunderstanding, but that stand was rebuilt after we pushed it off the mountain and squashed it with d-9. Ain't that a bitch. Some guys did not like the buddy system & did more than tease, because we were huge, and well built, so they waited and got my brothr during a phone call and two held him and third kicked his teeth out. If you remember the stairs,Lets just say I got even one by one, in one case two by one. Smooth after that ! JLc

3 years 18 weeks ago, 6:47 PM

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More Questions

Gentlemen, I have some questions regarding sighting in, groupings, and accuracy.

Please keep in mind, I have no prior experience with firearms, so this is very new for me. Also, my first few firearms aren't long range shooters, so I didn't put a high priority on grouping accuracy until now.

I took my 20" Bull Barrel to the range today to start sighting it in. There was a lot of 'dickin' around I had to do as far scope ergonomics and readjusting, but finally got things close. I was sighting in at 100 yards, using the bipod (no gun rest), and using my normal Wolf Performance Ammo (55 gr).

Basically, after screwing around to get close, my groupings weren't that good. I expected with a 20" barrel that I'd be at least getting a 2-3" grouping at 100 yards as a beginner, but no such luck. It was more like 5-6" grouping.

What are some things I need to do to reel in my groupings a little tighter? Better ammo, better gun, a gun rest, or is it most likely me?

Anything you guys see that I'm obviously doing wrong, please let me know. Thanks!

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 7:14 PM

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grant22

what kind of a gun is it,caliber,brand,twist rate? sounds like an ar15,223??????wolf ammo is likely a part of your problem,and proper twist rate for the ammo you feed it is important too.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 12:22 AM

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It's the gun in the original post. A DPMS AR-15, .223, 20" barrel, not sure the twist tho, I assume it's a 1:7, but can't confirm.

Anyone know if a gunsmith with a bore scope could tell the twist rate on this gun by looking inside?

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 8:20 AM

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grant22

guess i coulda looked at the original post.haha.yes a gunsmith can figure out your twist if you are curious,but you can get a good idea yourself by running a brush down the bore and counting the revolutions im sure. for instance a 20'' barrel the brush and rod do 2 revolutions your twist rate will be about 1:10.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 8:24 AM

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I would be suprised

if it was not cut into the outside of the chamber somewhere. Also if you know the model number you can look it up at DPMS. Sounds like a Panther setup...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 18 weeks ago, 5:55 AM

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Grouping...

Hate to say it, but my money it on the main issues being with you. I spend a LOT of time working with shooters who say their rifle is messed up and inconsistant. I pick it up and put 3 rounds into an area the size of a quarter. It is hard to say what the problem is from reading online. I'm guessing it is your trigger, meaning improper squeeze, to much finger, or just a crappy trigger on your weapon. It is important to be consistant with your fundamentals. Stable position ( I'm assumng your shooting from a bench), good sight picture (aim at the same spot EXACTLY everytime), good breath control (shoot at the pause between your exhale and your inhale), and trigger squeeze ( smooth even pressure to the rear. pull staight back, do not jerk the trigger, it should be a smooth consistant pull. Make sure you don't put to much finger on the trigger. About 1/3 of the way between the tip and the first joint.) Once you know your doing these things properly, then move to the possibility of the issue being the ammo or the rifle.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 7:40 AM

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Cool Ronin, I'll definitely start paying more attention to those things and work on them. (yes, I was bench shooting, btw.)

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 9:56 PM

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Is get them to get snap caps and practice the mechanics of sighting and pressing the trigger in such a manner that the scope stays steady. This gives you the chance to practice inside your home, or out in the back yard. Something else you might try is picking up a decent Pellet Gun you can practice with in your back yard shooting the small orange dots. Mechanics do not change.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 18 weeks ago, 7:52 AM

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Dry firing

That's something I *used* to do. I need to start doing again. I've caught myself pulling, flinching, and other bad habits whilst shooting.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 11:06 PM

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Thx ISD, i'll give that a try too.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 8:33 AM

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I just spoke with the gun shop that sold me the guns, he stated these are 1:9 twist. Although I'm sure Ronin is right and most of what's going on is 'the shooter' (me), I'm going to consider buying some heavier ammo and give that a try, too.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 9:30 AM

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1-9 " twist

A 20" 1-9 barrel should shoot decent ammo from 55gr up to 75gr. If you suspect ammo is the problem, Hornady sells loaded ammo in 53, 55, 60 62 and 75gr weight; it's one of the more consistent brands I've used.

If it's a new gun, what process did you use to break in the barrel? How you break in the barrel *can* in some cases make a difference. Every recommendation I've seen is different, but each starts with a thorough cleaning and degreasing of the barrel, then combinations of shot string interspersed with cleanings. Regardless, I wouldn't start worrying until you have at least 100rds through it.

Barrel heating/cooling can also affect accuracy. Initial or 'cold' shots are often at a different POI than subsequent shots from a heated barrel.

Lastly, are you 'loading' the bipod....ie are you pulling back or pushing forward on the gun putting strain on the bipod? Very few 'free float' fore ends on AR15s are really truly free-floated, and pressure on the fore end or accessories can put slight strains on the barrel, barrel nut, etc.

Many factory vanilla AR-pattern guns can be 1MOA (1" at 100yds) if you shoot and feed them right.

3 years 18 weeks ago, 10:37 AM

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agree

practice your mechanics and get used to the break (as much as you can). You can also start in closer. If you're measuring the groups, ditch the wolf.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 11:28 AM

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Ok, Update

First of all, thanks everyone for your advice. All has been very sound so far. I went today again and have some new developments. Here's some answers to above posts and I have some new questions.

-Took my pellet gun also, and practiced with it, first.

-I took more time paying attention to the mechanics and technique, and ended up with a decent 3 shot grouping (cold barrel).

-I did a good break-in. I did normal cleaning with the added step of Rem 40-X polishing. I did this the first 200 rounds @ every 50 rounds.

-I can say now that the problem was all or mostly me. The Wolf 55gr did well enough for my standards (recreational shooter). See the pic below. Those were the first three shots.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj77/grant22_2000/Forum%20Crap/CIMG18...

I do have some 'sighting in' questions. I'm having a hard time figuring out what direction to turn my knobs on my scope. Looking at the above pic, should I turn my Elev. UP and Wind. LEFT?

Am I bring the scope to the holes, or bring the holes to the scope/bullseye?

I told you guys I'm a lot of work ;)

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 11:38 AM

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Grant

what distance are you shooting?

right and down...

do only one at a time, move it right until your hitting center line vertical, then move down until your hitting center horizontal. and you should be zeroed..

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 18 weeks ago, 12:02 PM

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Thanks ISD, Right and

Thanks ISD, Right and Down.

I'm sighting in at 100 yd.

Are the 1/8" clicks 1/8" on the target or paper, or 1/8" in my scope's sight? If it's on paper, is it normal for it to be 1/8" @ 100yds?

Also, I noticed if I'm not looking in the sight just right, it gets blurry. Is it designed to do that?

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 12:16 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Grant

Should be 1/8 MOA. 1MOA = Roughly 1" per 100yds. So, at 100yds., 1/8"

The scope's blurriness is due to what is called eye relief. You have to have the exit pupil (the light exiting the scope to your eye) to where it is hitting your retina in an optimal fashion. So you may need to spend some time determining where your natural position is why you sight your target. It should be the same spot consistently. Then, if you have trouble with the eye relief, adjust the scope forward or rearward to the proper eye relief.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 1:39 PM

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yep

sounds like you need to adjust the eye relief. Also, are you trying to zero your rifle at 100 yds? I ask because its fairly easy to BZO your rifle at 36 yds, which will have a flat trajectory at 300M. Also 50 yds is approx 200. This is not for precision shooting, just to get a battle zero.

Rule of thumb for 5.56:

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 4:46 PM

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Hey reaper308

WIth my SKS ( got big scope on it) should I ZERO in @ 36 yards?Have not sighted it in yet as I put on a M4 stock big scope from my L!A1 FAL :>) .TY

Reaper308 wrote:
sounds like you need to adjust the eye relief. Also, are you trying to zero your rifle at 100 yds? I ask because its fairly easy to BZO your rifle at 36 yds, which will have a flat trajectory at 300M. Also 50 yds is approx 200. This is not for precision shooting, just to get a battle zero.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 10:01 AM

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7.62x39 will have a different trajectory and arc than 5.56x45

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 1:06 PM

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Reaper SKS BZO

should 100 yrds be good?I seen laser sights say 25 gets it in 100 yrds but never tryed........TY

Reaper308 wrote:
7.62x39 will have a different trajectory and arc than 5.56x45

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3 years 17 weeks ago, 1:47 PM

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with 7.62x39... a 25 yd BZO puts the round on target again at roughly 200 yds with a rise of 3.5 in. in between maxing out around 120 yds. So your 25 yd BZO will be about 3.25 in high at 100 yds.

A 50 yd BZO is good until about 115 yds then drops off the map but doesn't rise much at all in between.

you guys with an Iphone should look into this KAC app...
http://www.knightarmco.com/bulletflight/
http://www.gunatics.com/forums/general-gun-talk/5003-kac-bullet-flight-i...

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 1:50 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Nice pic Reaper

I like how it illustrates that. I assume that is the trajectory on a 5.56? I'd like to do this sometime to my rifle as well. It would be nice to have a zero that is the half-height point of the arc so there is minimal deviation on elevation.
Now if I could do something about that windage. ;)

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 1:57 PM

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SJMB

yeah, 5.56. When you say:

Saint J.M. Browning wrote:
It would be nice to have a zero that is the half-height point of the arc so there is minimal deviation on elevation.

wouldn't 50/200 work? I have my carbines at 36/300.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:47 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Reaper

I'm not sure. My rifle is .30-06 and I'm sure the arc is larger on its trajectory so I don't know if it would be the same. Is that a guideline for 5.56, or is it a general rule of thumb?
I've heard other guys saying they zero at 300 so it's a little high at 100 and they hold under but it flattens out the trajectory out to distance. I don't do much beanfield shooting, so I tend to zero at 100. But I'm open to new ideas. Especially for when the zombies come. lol

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:51 PM

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SJMB

yeah, its just for 5.56. I'm sure you can find something similar for .30-06, but I've bever done it. It will have a longer arc

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:20 PM

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Hmmmmm, yes, I'm trying to zero mine in at 100 yds. I was under the impression that that's where I was supposed to zero it out at........especially since I'm trying to do (somewhat) precision shooting.

Now my ACR and 16" AR-15 I could see doing the 36 yd zeroing.

Please let me know if I'm wrong in my thinking here.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:22 PM

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Also, are you saying there's a rise AND fall? I thought a bullet comes out straight and just drops gradually?

Is there a book titled "Shooting for Dummies" out there? I need a copy!

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:32 PM

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grant

yes, as the bullet leaves the muzzle, it will start to rise, then fall due to gravity creating an arc. Some calibers/loads have flatter trajectories than others.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 18 weeks ago, 2:36 PM

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grant

hang in there buddy!its not as hard as it seems right now.yes there is an arc path the bullet takes.reapers pic posted above shows it well.although i dont zero that way,maybe i should,the idea makes sense,and you will be zeroed at 2 different ranges with minimal deviation between them.

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3 years 18 weeks ago, 4:23 PM

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Lake Havasu, AZ, United States

So, am I correct in saying I should zero in the way Reaper is showing on my closer range stuff (ACR, AR-15), but on this DPMS mini sniper, zero in at 100 yds? I was under the impression that you zero in at 100, then use the drop compensator on 200, 300, 400, etc.

Iron Maiden is my religion!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 4:35 PM

Anonymous

Grant

Do you know how easy it is to have your gun sighted in for you and usually at no cost, or a coupon from manurfacture, to FFL guy you bought it from. It is set up with no movement possible and sighted in for anybody to get used to, and figure if trigger pull has a left or right glich etc. They can shorten or lengthen or put more weight or take it away. But one thing is for sure if they sight it at 100yds and say it is perfect w/ pull etc, then the rest is you my friend. You are buying good Guns and names that can and are or do come sighted in for you w/scope purchase. Just a thought! JC Saves aggravaition

3 years 17 weeks ago, 5:34 PM

grant22

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Agreed

It's definitely me. I've spent some quality time following advice on here at the range and am getting much better results. The trigger pull was the biggest thing, and I'm still trying to get better at it.

Also, an old guy at the range today spent some time spotting my hits and he really helped reel in my groups. Some serious experience from him and you guys is definitely helping!!!

I may consider having my trigger reworked by JP Enterprises. That may be $200 well spent for this weapon.

Iron Maiden is my religion!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 10:47 AM

Reaper308

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grant

JP has good triggers. So do Geissele and Timney. I may be forking over for a Geissele shortly.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 17 weeks ago, 7:02 PM

Anonymous

Grant

Whatever you decide will be hopefully the right choice for you and the weapon of your choice. I am not as fortunate to have the oppurtunnity to buy a lot of weapons I wanted for personal use, at the same time or anytime. I usually had to wait or shoot what I could afford to hunt with and what the state I was in allowed. Like Jeresy, they say is basically flat so nothing but shotguns and 10ga is the limit. then they played with shot or ammo, ooBuck, then just o-buck and nothing less than a 4-10, 20ga not allowed ? why ? who knows, then comes the slug, then only 3 shots allowed in gun at all times w/ a plug and actually a ranger stopping you or ruinng your hunt by walking up on your stand to check your license and amount, and slug or buckshot, and then at least 50sq" of red at all times somewhere on body. What Gauge, then changed from led to copper for Ducks and rabbitt so no pollution, then stamps on licence, buy a Duck hunting licence and then have to buy a stamp for Mallard or black or wire sitters or Brandt or Geese etc. The Blackbear introduced and wolves & turkeys. Now they are out of control and pests and cost you a cool 500 in licence stamps & licence and still shotgun, but Bearload Shot? What the Hell is Bear load Shot. ooBuck that's all. If you think I am going to shoot a 400lb black bear with 2 cubs and 3 shots of oo-buck, wrong.Sorry for getting carried away- All I meant was all the advice was great and all, but find what you love to shoot and iron sights first then move on to what reaper says and spotter and or manufacturer and sniper with it, and go to next thing you like and so on. You cannot miss, because you love the guns and shooting. So it is there for the taking. A lot of guys learn from the military and hunted before that and after. But the love of the gun or anything else you pick in life is the secret. You show me somebody that loves what they do for a living and I will see a happy person to go and make that living everyday. JC

3 years 17 weeks ago, 9:17 PM

Ishootdaily

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http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm
Some good info for anyone interested

And another link with some other things that many will find interesting.
http://www.sjhprojects.com/gallery.php?ptag=Testing

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 17 weeks ago, 12:57 PM

grant22

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Lake Havasu, AZ, United States

Well boys and girls, happy 4th of July! What better way to celebrate than to go exercise our 2nd amendment rights at the firearm range?

My friend and I met there with our 20" mini sniper rifles and spent some more time sighting in. Once we got our scopes to our 'I'm happy with that" level, we had a little competition. We had two sets of 5 rounds each. Best grouping and closest to bullseye was the winner. I'm glad to say after following your advice on this forum, I won free lunch from my buddy.

My best today was an inch and a half grouping (5 rounds) at 100 yards.

Next, we're gonna start trying 200 yards and see how we do. Also, I dont want to put too much $ into this gun, but think it would be worth it to spend $220 at JP Engineering and have him do his trigger assembly job. I'd end up with a 3.5 - 4lb trigger pull which I think would be very beneficial to this gun.

Also, I saw first hand, the difference decent ammo makes. I tried my WPA, Remington, and Federal FMJ (all 55gr) and the Federal definitely performed the best with best grouping. They seemed to have more horsepower too.

Thx again for all your help. Made a big difference and is making me better!

Happy Independence Day!!!

Iron Maiden is my religion!
3 years 15 weeks ago, 9:35 AM

grant22

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Well boys, although I like owning a variety of guns, I found I like shooting this wanna be 'mini sniper rifle' the best. I've been going to the range every morning that I'm off work and really enjoy the precision shooting aspect of this sport. Obviously I've had very good results following your advice and techniques with precision shooting.

The last piece of the puzzle, though, is the trigger group. I think this trigger group on this weapon is a little too hard of a pull for this kind of shooting.

I called JP Engineering and was going to order the Original Trigger Kit, but after talking to Carol over there, I decided to spend the extra $80 and get the EZ Trigger Kit. The main difference is the EZ is drop in and the Original Trigger is a little more tedious and even worse, she told me it might involve grinding. No thanks for a newb like me.

Any how, once I get the EZ Trigger and drop it in, I'll let you guys now how it is. I'm sure it will be $260 WELL SPENT.

Iron Maiden is my religion!
3 years 14 weeks ago, 5:34 PM

grant22

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Lake Havasu, AZ, United States

Just got my JP EZ Trigger in, gonna start the prep and install........if any of you have any tricks for this, better let me know now before I eff it all up!!!

Hopefully these intructions are good enough.......we'll see!

Iron Maiden is my religion!
3 years 14 weeks ago, 9:55 PM

grant22

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Lake Havasu, AZ, United States
Holy crap, the

Holy crap, the not-so-EZ-trigger is finally mounted up. I can already see and feel the difference and exxpect some great results down at the range. Hopefully I come back with a report of great groupings.

Iron Maiden is my religion!

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