Forums / Political & Legal / Osama Bin Laden Dead: Does This Really Even Matter More Than For Morale?

3 years 11 weeks ago, 12:01 PM

TLtactical

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Osama Bin Laden Dead: Does This Really Even Matter More Than For Morale?

I am perplexed by the celebration over Osama Bin Laden's death... We are so worked up as a nation over a death of a single individual that is claimed to haev been behind some attacks un US Ships, an Embassy and some other targets... Most notably he is claimed to be responsible for the downing of the Twin Towers in New York on 9/11...

Here are the things that bother me about all of this:

1. He is an individual part of a bad organization... Many people are surely looming in the background and now ready to seize control as with any group. What actually changes from this?

2. How is Barack Obama responsible for US Military Special Operations? I seriously doubt he formulated any strategy whatsoever in this situation... His approval ratings are so much higher than I can even image at 45% when I last heard... Is America really this spaced out?

3. He may have been a really bad guy, but there are so many to choose from, even here in our own country... Why are we so fixated on this one guy that was old and probably already dying...

4. Does anyone here believe that jet fuel is capable of melting steel beams and causing a perfect set of explosions 40 floors below impact? There does seem to be much more at work here such as incendiary explosives to drop those buildings.

5. Was anything at all gained other than a small morale boost for Jr. enlisted personnel that feel this was a big deal or the public that actually listens to the media as fact provider?

I look forward to everyone's comments... Let's try to keep it polite though.. Good debate means we should all be able to communicate without so much profanity or emotional interference... I want to hear real ideas and fact!

What have you got?

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 12:04 PM

Ishootdaily

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If you don't get it...

you don't get it...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 12:14 PM

TLtactical

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Ishootdaily: ???

If I don't get what? I am trying to learn what this all means to everyone... It seems over glamorized to me...

What does it mean to you?

I am just a combat vet that works in the gun industry... What do I know... I want other people to tell me what they know or feel...

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 1:21 PM

Ishootdaily

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I'm pretty much in the opinion that it is nothing more than symbolic. People individually are less likely to grasp onto symbolism and hold it up as some kind of mythical talisman. But collectively society thrives upon it.

They need it, just as everyone who wants to believe that He isn't dead, he was murdered, he was dead long ago or his death means it's all done and over.

Pictures or not, the death of bin Laden is a symbol to be used by any faction wanting to and it is a kind of opiate for the masses...

Everything evil, everything since 9/11 was bin Laden to them.

What does his death or not change? Not a damn thing and it means even less ultimately because it does not end anything. Other than the symbolism and what they hold it up to represent while trying to further their goals...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 12:32 PM

clintlebo

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TL

try this thread: http://www.gunslot.com/forum/if-it-sounds-too-good-be-true

some good discussions here.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:49 PM

Anonymous

bin scum

TLtactical wrote:
Osama Bin Laden Dead: Does This Really Even Matter More Than For Morale?

I am perplexed by the celebration over Osama Bin Laden's death... We are so worked up as a nation over a death of a single individual that is claimed to haev been behind some attacks un US Ships, an Embassy and some other targets... Most notably he is claimed to be responsible for the downing of the Twin Towers in New York on 9/11...

Here are the things that bother me about all of this:

1. He is an individual part of a bad organization... Many people are surely looming in the background and now ready to seize control as with any group. What actually changes from this?

2. How is Barack Obama responsible for US Military Special Operations? I seriously doubt he formulated any strategy whatsoever in this situation... His approval ratings are so much higher than I can even image at 45% when I last heard... Is America really this spaced out?

3. He may have been a really bad guy, but there are so many to choose from, even here in our own country... Why are we so fixated on this one guy that was old and probably already dying...

4. Does anyone here believe that jet fuel is capable of melting steel beams and causing a perfect set of explosions 40 floors below impact? There does seem to be much more at work here such as incendiary explosives to drop those buildings.

5. Was anything at all gained other than a small morale boost for Jr. enlisted personnel that feel this was a big deal or the public that actually listens to the media as fact provider?

I look forward to everyone's comments... Let's try to keep it polite though.. Good debate means we should all be able to communicate without so much profanity or emotional interference... I want to hear real ideas and fact!

What have you got?

TL
What did it mean when Hitler was considered dead, what did it mean when Carlos the gretest at the time if would not be now sniper in Nam did not pick off the best sniper and Gutter of americans after shot and a woman right thru the scope and left the wanted poster for him personally. What did it mean for sadass and sons to be picked off and sure to be dead. I could go on forever,in this country, what did it mean to get Al Capone and the Government. It means Hope and trueism is still alive and the free way of your thinking, and especially your children, who will be taught in school that being a bloodthirsty, idiot that thinks with fear they can control the city or state or country or world. I cannot believe an intelligent Vet w/ a family would answer a question with a question. Think about it. If the Japs won, than we would be eating rice and bowing and getting heads chopped off if we did not bow far enough down to the emperor, and it would be fine to attack another country at the same time you are signing a peace treaty with them. You want history to show your kids that kind of meaning and be ruled like that. We are paying back the indians for doing what wrong and some damn awful things to them right now, to show our kids that is right. We fought brother against brother to abolish slavery, so we and kids learn the right and wrong. Would you rather the outlet on the wall not be a GFI so if you or child touches it they die. what did they learn about them. If it takes killing one person that represents a group of animals to humanity, that says we do not give up and whoever and how many will never be tolerated. I salute you and love you for sharing your life for the greater humanity of this country and theirs. JLC

3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:15 PM

TLtactical

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clintlebo: I will peek into it in a bit

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:18 PM

TLtactical

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Ishootdaily: Bin Laden

I agree with you on the mere symbolism of it all. Bin laden had become the American's version of the Boogyman! I would like it if we could all move on now and pay attention to the problems in our country instead of that guy...

It will be interesting to see where this "War On Terror" goes from here now.

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:12 PM

Ishootdaily

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One hopes

hopes it never gets close to the War on Drugs. Though I do not think they could be so flippant with turning it into a Cash Cow as they did with the so called war on drugs.

Pakistan evidently was playing with the idea, taking millions in funding to search for something they had hidden away.

eh, time will tell...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 3:24 PM

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too true isd.they say they just want us to live healthy lives,but really they want the $$$$.they should have figured out by now that people like geting high,and they wont stop just because there is a law.big brother just likes all the sweet cash seizures they make.

TLtactical,people like to talk about how "jet fuel dosnt burn hot enough to melt steel"but the facts are (A) it dosnt need to fully melt the steel,it just needed to weaken it enough to make it pliable under the pressure of the building above,and when all that weight falls upon the weakened structure below it begins a crush/sepperating force that makes it do the slow motion peel effect we all remember.kinda like your kids bed is plent strong to hold them,but if they jump on it it will break,even easir if it was weakened by fire.why your kids lit the bed on fire and jumped on it is your problem though lol haha
(B)jet fuel could burn hot enough to melt steel it burns so hot it can be clear flame,ask any fire fighter that has ever worked at an airport responded to a downed jet,or been trained for it,thats why firefighters at the airport get those sweet tin foil suits and enclosed helmet/masks.

(C)the entire structure was already weakened from the impact of the plane not just at the point of impact but far below due to the compounding of force (imagine you have a similar structure made of wood dowels) if you hit it with a hammer it wont only be damaged where you impacted it directly.

(D)as vaquero mentioned"chimney effect" could come into play turning the building into a big torch to melt itself with.
(E) explosions on a lower floor make perfect sense as long as you understand burning jet fuel will tend to run down hill into lower floors and if enough unburned vapor builds up when temps get to high and the fire consumes all or most of the air in a given space it will backdraft if exposed to air,such as a window that cracked due to heat(yes just like the old movie) and then it goes booooom all at once.so,yes it is a moot victory to kill binladin,but an important one for our morale and a symbol to our enemys that they cant get away with terorism without certain death even if it takes 10 years.obama,well fuck obama,but he did a good speech,no he didnt plan the attack he just picked up a secure line and said go.

clint as far as dwelling on events,i dont,i dont think we should have done anything different after the attacks,we should have expressed our anger to the world started our war shut the borders,but kept life for citizens at airports etc. exactly the same to show we are not afraid of terorists.fuck if a guy on a plane with me trys to take control with a box cuter,id borrow the gold pen from the business man sitting next to me and give haji a whatfor.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:43 PM

clintlebo

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gold pen

If I had one, I would give it to you, of course it might have haji grey matter on it, but I would share...
I was going to try to respond to the jet fuel question, but my friend I do not know what else to add...good explanation.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:25 PM

TLtactical

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John,

I am not sure how we compare Adolf Hitler Genocidal reign of world wide terror and conquest to Osama Bin Laden. Sure we have a couple of bad guys as far as the Western World sees them, but now many parallels are transparent to me.

I feel I am a pretty patriotic person, and support freedom maybe more than most in fact, especially the second amendment! I don't know that hope or patriotism have much to do with the lack of military importance Bin Laden really possessed though. I merely find him to be somewhat insignificant unless you truly believe he brought the twin towers down in New York. He appears to have been made responsible for everything bad we could find and now it gives a false victory to the people and little more in my opinion. Nothing has changed other than a shift in power in his organization in my humble honest opinion.

I am still stuck trying to find any change from all of this that is other than symbolic.

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 7:20 PM

Anonymous

TL

1st of all you are a great countryman and patriot, others know how I feel about the servicemen in this counry and are entitled to your opinion like anyone else. Your outlook is Valid and I am not downing what your ideals about this are. You are obviously a good father too. I merely was trying to point out that you have to start somewhere, when you run into scum like I mentioned. They have no concern about human rights or life for that matter. But I firmly believe that if we do not end some of the representatives of this type of dirt,and pass it down on to our children and show them how we changed the world after these people were eliminated from any society that considers life as a stepping stone to death, but not for them personally, as Bin scum used his wife as a shield, will prove that and the participation of his cowardly acts against not just our country but others. And we never gave up to find justice out of his acts. Then it is possible that the next leader of Taliban will adjust his attitude a little, in the future. Like Germany, Japan, Iraq etc. By the way I know that if you pronounce a Muslims name wrong or fail to spell it right, it is a very bad insult for him, that is why I never say or spell his name correctly. It does work from our own gunslingers in the west to Mob Bosses, and people like Kgadify in Libyia, when Reagan sent a missile into his palace and unfortunately killed his brother and kid I think and missed the scum then. But he stopped his genocide of his own people just because Pres. Reagan shoved a missile up his stovepipe. Now he is starting again and OBAMA sent another missile but do not know how it turned out yet. There have been a lot of others that have changed their way of thinking because we kicked the old Bosses ass. Change is a way of life and you will find raising your own family and those lovely kids in your photo, that is you do not go with the change if you do not like where it is headed, like a parents teacher conference about a bully picking on your child because he is jealous of her, and the teacher says-- I think it would be better to have your child moved to another classroom, then the bully will not have anyone to pick on. You will flip and say are you crazy he will just pick on another kid and will own the whole class in a short time. No you will demand that the bully be punished to send the message to other bullys that you do not act that way here? Might be a bad and literally stupid analogy, but felt it was worth saying. I hope to be your friend and fellow patriot. JOHN

3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:02 PM

Ishootdaily

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TLtactical wrote:
John,
I am not sure how we compare Adolf Hitler Genocidal reign of world wide terror and conquest to Osama Bin Laden. Sure we have a couple of bad guys as far as the Western World sees them, but now many parallels are transparent to me.
TL

It is not about their actions, though there are some similarity to their dogma, it is about their demise....

Hitler is dead, correct? How did he die? Old Age many years later in a Siberian Gulag ? Self Inflicted gunshot wound to the head inside his bunker only to be taken out and burned beyond recognition?

Is there any evidence? Jaw bone and partial Skull, were they release, why not if they were his?
how about pictures? did he kill himself, one of his troops kill him? was it the Russians? What did it mean if he died or not? What did it change?

How many people accepted his death as presented after the War? how many people still think he lived well past the end of the War? Did his message of hate and superiority ever die? Other than the symbolic meaning, what does it matter in the end?

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been dead by whatever means. What I am saying is people latch onto those Symbols and try to stuff them into a box designed by their own beliefs. If that symbol doesn't actually fit, they really don't care, they will jump up and down on it and let whatever breaks off and falls to the side do so, but they hang onto as much of that symbol as they can and fill in the blanks with, but. what if, and even deeper beliefs in even more iconic spin and sometimes they can not see how ludicrous their position is because they never step outside to take a look.

We all do it in some shape or form, but, some take it to the extreme and it starts to define them to the point that others start taking notice while they might live on blissfully ignorant of it.

Symbolism, Myth and Mythology are all very powerful Manna...

-----------

anyway, I think that is where John was making the comparison...

I'll be quiet again now...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:51 AM

Anonymous

ISD & Randy, Vaq

Thankyou and for the informative way youput things JD, You have a way with words that I cannot seem to get across and you still no what I mean. Randy too. I know I am late as hell, but just wanted you to read the post I put this day earlier and I have no more to say about it. But I know a lot of guys do not know what I am talking about for we are generations apart. Not that by anymeans I am insinuating a bigger Iq. Vaq will know too what I am saying and knows what Hope and freedom, and childhood hope instead of fear when growing up. I carry on sometimes and start to think about the Neanderthal way again. So I guess I am burned out. But it seems so simple to see that no more attacks ON American soil sense we gave the kill order to that ingreat, that our children will continue now to grow up with hope and freedom to do what they want in life, instead of Bomb drills and afraid for another attack. We as a country have repeatedly proved that if you want or take a piece of our lives to degrade our way of life, you will be stopped for as long as it takes. JOHN

3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:03 PM

luckybychoice

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Just my opinion

based on what i have seen regarding the construction of the origional twin towers and my 35+ years of vertical construction experience,i believe the jet fuel fire and plane impact was sufficent to bring down the towers.I don't believe there is any additional demolitions that were set,i don't believe in the boogeyman either but i do believe that osama computers and phones are going to produce a huge amount of Intel.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:27 PM

Ishootdaily

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I'm with ya LBC

JP5 and JP8 burns much hotter and much longer than the fuel which they ran in the B25 which flew into the Empire State Building.

It much have been like being in the middle of a massive Napalm attack inside there.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:10 PM

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absolutely

and the structure was load bearing to the exterior walls,the Empire State Building was load bearing thru out.Once the exterior of the twin Towers was compromised at the crash site floors,the load had no where to go but compound on the exterior wall of the floor below,combined with the immense heat,well above what would fatigue metal,you would not find a structural engineer that would say different i'll bet.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:23 PM

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Tell you what...

uncle Mike made up some FooGas up in Maine one new years. We all went out to this rock quarry and he set it up in the middle of the dig. Used what I guess they are calling M100's now and set it off. Middle of the night, BooomFQOOOOSH. The freaking heat was shocking and we were a good 100 yards from it. That was just about a gallon of the stuff, I could not even imagine the heat that wa generated into that building or the heat transference along the whole of the Iron structure. I'm not sure people really understand how that works until they are holding a 6x6 green iron angle three feet away from the torch without gloves and want to stand around and BS when they guy cutting tells them, hey, put that on the stack now....

LOL... I sure as hell learned...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:30 PM

luckybychoice

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yep

hot,hot hot.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:46 PM

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OBL

What did his death give us??? IMHO, not much. I think the whole thing was poorly handled from start to finish by the administration. Don't get me wrong, the seal team that conducted the mission handled it with true professionalism, and that is where it ended. The manor in which they have dealt with the photo's and the body prevented any true closure for the families of the victims. The inconsistant stories created doubt as to the legality of the actions of the brave service members that conducted the operation. Everyone tried to get their face attached to the story and botched it horrably. And finally, by clamping down after they screwed up, the administration made it appear that there truely is something to hide.
Do I think that OBL should have been eliminated, with-out a doubt, Yes. But this should have been handled as almost every other spec-op is handled..... In secrecy. We should have gone in, conducted the mission, and with-drawn. The bad guys would know he was dead, and have an Idea who did it, but would never know for sure. Can you imagine the psychological affect? To know that there was nowhere safe and to not even have a target to strike back at? Now, they may know that we will get them, but by advertising our part, we have painted a target on the backs of the american servicemen and the population for retalitory strikes. This whole circus is just BHO's way of juicing it for approval. Just my 2 cents...

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:57 PM

luckybychoice

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well said ronin

kill him,say you killed him and damn everybody.This is where our Leadership is so lacking,in leadership,and also i believe the press has been allowed to grill each nano-second of a very fluid operation,when the white house makes a statement,the press just boils down each word in a sentence,that gets really old real fast for me.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:09 PM

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ronin, for sure...

LBC, it does doesn't it...

Sometimes I wish I could reach into the screen and squeeze until they quiet wiggling...

Like all of them harping on the Helicopter blown in place. They asked the DOD and got no response so they decide to run amok all over the wire talking about what they are sure is a Defense Secret.

Or pushing people about the legality of a capture/kill as oppsed to a kill order. WTF?

There are plent of skin bags walking around that should have the air let out of them, he just happened to be on the top of that list and it was a long time coming but did not loose it's validity with time....

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:16 PM

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truer words

have never been spoken ISD,and those mouth pieces spew their crap and some dumbfuck thats watched to many Rambo movies(God i hate Sylvester Stallone) in his parents basement gets to call in with his lame assed opinion,and the press......GRRRRRRR

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:10 PM

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This goes back to the people of the US, and esp the media saying that the people have a right to know.... Well, sometimes NO THEY DON"T! When the media endangers to lives of americans and servicemen to get a story in the name of "Free Speach", it's just wrong. I BELIEVE in the constitution of the US. But I cannot believe that this is what our fore-fathers had in mind when they wrote the 1st Ammendment. The media needs to learn that sometimes discression is the better virtue

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:42 PM

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ronin

I think you are confusing the wordings of the first amendment.
I got these blurbs from http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/
clint

Amendment 1 to the United States Constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Blackstone said: ''The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press: but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous, or illegal, he must take the consequences of his own temerity. To subject the press to the restrictive power of a licenser, as was formerly done, both before and since the Revolution, is to subject all freedom of sentiment to the prejudices of one man, and make him the arbitrary and infallible judge of all controverted points in learning, religion and government. But to punish as the law does at present any dangerous or offensive writings, which, when published, shall on a fair and impartial trial be adjudged of a pernicious tendency, is necessary for the preservation of peace and good order, of government and religion, the only solid foundations of civil liberty. Thus, the will of individuals is still left free: the abuse only of that free will is the object of legal punishment. Neither is any restraint hereby laid upon freedom of thought or inquiry; liberty of private sentiment is still left; the disseminating, or making public, of bad sentiments, destructive to the ends of society, is the crime which society corrects.''
--W. Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England 151-52 (T. Cooley 2d rev. ed. 1872). See 3 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 1874-86 (Boston: 1833). The most comprehensive effort to assess theory and practice in the period prior to and immediately following adoption of the Amendment is L. Levy, Legacy of Suppression: Freedom of Speech and Press in Early American History (1960), which generally concluded that the Blackstonian view was the prevailing one at the time and probably the understanding of those who drafted, voted for, and ratified the Amendment.

Several Court holdings do firmly point to the conclusion that the press clause does not confer on the press the power to compel government to furnish information or to give the press access to information that the public generally does not have. 34 Nor in many respects is the press entitled to treatment different in kind than the treatment any other member of the public may be subjected to. 35 ''Generally applicable laws do not offend the First Amendment simply because their enforcement against the press has incidental effects.'' 36 Yet, it does seem clear that to some extent the press, because of the role it plays in keeping the public informed and in the dissemination of news and information, is entitled to particular if not special deference that others are not similarly entitled to, that its role constitutionally entitles it to governmental ''sensitivity,'' to use Justice Stewart's word. 37 What difference such a recognized ''sensitivity'' might make in deciding cases is difficult to say.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 2:00 AM

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ooops

disregard

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 11 weeks ago, 1:57 AM

ronin1604

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Or maybe I'm confused but the paragrah you posted stated "but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous, or illegal, he must take the consequences of his own temerity". I think this is my point. The media in general, has developed a trend that I feel is inproper. Think about when Geraldo showed pics of the planning ops on national TV during the begining of the war in afghanistan... I understand the right of free speach, but when it endangers soldiers or comprimises missions it does not apply. However, the country we live in today has gone so far overboard that there are few consequences to these peoples actions. If the 2nd amendment was as protected as the first is, the BATFE would be out of work. LOL!

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 11 weeks ago, 2:41 AM

luckybychoice

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I am familiar with

what Clintlebo posted,that's why i cringe a bit,I apreciate the fact that we live under this constitution,i know that we hit the limits of it sometimes too,or stretch the intent.and yes Ronin,there is limited or no accountability for reporters or journalists that expose persons,military or otherwise,to undue malicious release of sensitive information.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 7:33 AM

clintlebo

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freedom of the press

Freedom of the press does not guarantee the press free right to publish anything and everything they want without consequence. The media has perpetuated this myth, similar to that of us living in a democracy.

Quoted from http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/08.html#1

Several Court holdings do firmly point to the conclusion that the press clause does not confer on the press the power to compel government to furnish information or to give the press access to information that the public generally does not have. 34 Nor in many respects is the press entitled to treatment different in kind than the treatment any other member of the public may be subjected to. 35 ''Generally applicable laws do not offend the First Amendment simply because their enforcement against the press has incidental effects.'' 36 Yet, it does seem clear that to some extent the press, because of the role it plays in keeping the public informed and in the dissemination of news and information, is entitled to particular if not special deference that others are not similarly entitled to, that its role constitutionally entitles it to governmental ''sensitivity,'' to use Justice Stewart's word. 37 What difference such a recognized ''sensitivity'' might make in deciding cases is difficult to say.

[Footnote 34] Houchins v. KQED, 438 U.S. 1 (1978), and id. at 16 (Justice Stewart concurring); Saxbe v. Washington Post, 417 U.S. 843 (1974); Pell v. Procunier, 417 U.S. 817 (1974); Nixon v. Warner Communications, 435 U.S. 589 (1978). The trial access cases, whatever they may precisely turn out to mean, recognize a right of access of both public and press to trials. Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, 448 U.S. 555 (1980); Globe Newspaper Co. v. Superior Court, 457 U.S. 596 (1982).

[Footnote 35] Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665 (1972) (grand jury testimony be newspaper reporter); Zurcher v. Stanford Daily, 436 U.S. 547 (1978) (search of newspaper offices); Herbert v. Lando, 441 U.S. 153 (1979) (defamation by press); Cohen v. Cowles Media Co., 501 U.S. 663 (1991) (newspaper's breach of promise of confidentiality).

[Footnote 36] Cohen v. Cowles Media, 501 U.S. 663, 669 (1991).

[Footnote 37] E.g., Miami Herald Pub. Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241 (1974); Landmark Communications v. Virginia, 435 U.S. 829 (1978). See also Zurcher v. Stanford Daily, 436 U.S. 547, 563 -67 (1978), and id. at 568 (Justice Powell concurring); Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665, 709 (1972) (Justice Powell concurring). Several concurring opinions in Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, 448 U.S. 555 (1980), imply recognition of some right of the press to gather information that apparently may not be wholly inhibited by nondiscriminatory constraints. Id. at 582-84 (Justice Stevens), 586 n.2 (Justice Brennan), 599 n.2 (Justice Stewart). On the other hand, the Court has also suggested that the press is protected in order to promote and to protect the exercise of free speech in the society, including the receipt of information by the people. E.g., Mills v. Alabama, 384 U.S. 214, 218 -19 (1966); CBS v. FCC, 453 U.S. 367, 394 -95 (1981).

I think the Freedom of Information Act is what is really being called into question, but there are 9 ways that the government may curtail the flow of information to the public. The easiest is to invoke rule #1: specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and are in fact properly classified pursuant to such Executive order.

What has me as confused as a blind lesbian in a fish market is the lack of transparency the BHO administration has displayed. If memory serves me correctly, one of the planks in their platform during the election was how they would differ from the last 8 years and run a transparent government.

I agree with ronin's comment about introducing the unemployment line to the BATFE; however, it is my opinion that we should not be hasty and suggest regulation of the other amendments equivalent to those assaulting the second. We the people have become so distrustful of the government that we automatically think they are lying to us. We scream conspiracy at the drop of a hat now. It is important that press be allowed to investigate the government to keep it more honest. It is also important for the press to police themselves and ask the question, "is this story good or bad for 'We the People'?" Unfortunately honor has been lost, trust is a financial asset that gets you a reality tv show, and corruption has been filling the vacuum of the soul left by those two ideas.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:21 AM

ronin1604

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Clintbo.....

First off, I think this is a great conversation, very well made points.
Perhaps I miss-stated what I meant.How about, if I say I feel there is a lack of accountability in the media and I feel that you are correct in saying that the media is needed to keep the goverment honest, but in their rush to be the first to get the story, I'm not always sure that they report factual information and that they do not ask themselves " Is this story good for We the People".

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:47 AM

clintlebo

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ronin

I knew what you were trying to type, and I was not trying to be an elitists, just trying to add to your points with information backed by court cases and founding father opinions.
It seems to me that the "baby boomer" generation has all but forgot how to self regulate. This has been passed down to my generation; however,I am starting to see the reverse with my friends children. I hope it is not to late. Thanks for piquing my interest so I may research and learn from this discussion.

clintbo

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:57 AM

Anonymous

TL& all guys

Sorry, I had to back out early last night, But only have one more point to make, and I guess I am not getting threw to TL or anyone else. Here goes-- When a child sees an act like 9-11, and knows that the person is still out there. They grow up living in fear. They know when they hit some teen years, that they could always be killed by a lunatic named Bid-Scum okay! Then we finnally nail him, and all the children know that there could be more retaliation, but not from that scumm. The younger ones will not grow up in fear everyday. Like I didn't, well it was different with me, I do not fear anything as my father taught us at early age. When I grew up it was every 30 days a Nuclear or atom bomb drill at school. same thing every time, get under your desk and in a ball and wait untill someone came and got you. There were a lot of kids that cried every time that drill went off, and scared to death. We all no now that we would have been vaporized or died like the japs in Hiroshima for instance. But being a kid and turning down sporting events or whatever to go to NY and perform, because they are afraid of life itself because Bin-SCUM is still out there. Do you want those beautiful kids to grow up in fear like that ? Or do you want those kids to know that there are bad people out there but we eventually get them and punish them all over the world and they are no more. You to me are suggesting that philosophy for your children to follow. How many more incidents has Bin-Scum done sense 911 and us after him and Taliban here in USA, ten years my friend! Do you want your children growing up in fear or only think they are generally safe and play and learn and etc. If we do nothing, that is what we are leaving the next generation to see. Take the killing and maybe they who do the nasty will stop! think about it, for your kids sake. Who took Hitlers place & Muselini & the emporer of Japan, I do not remember any retaliation. Who took over for Jack the Ripper ?, AL Capone? You get the idea and how and what I am talking about. Did you not just defend your country over there so it will not happen here? Why, for your children and wife etc. You should really ask some questions to yourself before scaring the next generation in the USA. We do not let anybody F@#@K with us and get away with it, you should know that as a serviceman. Do you know what it was like to be in Nam and here the radio and all the people in us saying we are baby killers, and spit & vomit and Fieces, thrown on you instead of welcome home boys dead or alive.No F@#K#$G respect. You have to fist fight your way if still in uniform thru a crowd, and Jane Fonda says the Hanoi Hilton is a great place to live, then why didn't she check in for a while, as the man who lost to Obama about that, when they forced a straw down his throat and made him swallow little stones w/ jagged edges so his kidneys would be cut to shreds when he had to piss, and then pass them. I am sorry I am done now. You are still a heroe in my book and no matter how you think or do for here out, you have the earned right and the right of all america has to offer. Quote " You do not ever want to know what it feels like to slit another mans throat, and know you got many more to come" unquote. JohnCampbell

3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:01 AM

clintlebo

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wait a minute

I read a report (can not remember where, but I will look) that researched attention spans of generations. The baby boomers attention span is about an hour, my generation (X) is 30 minutes, generation Y is 6 minutes and they are estimating the next generation will be close to 30 seconds.
The data was collected and they found a correlation with TV viewing habits. Sit-coms became prevalent in the 1970's where generation X was growing up. Music videos became prevalent in the late 1980's and early 1990's, generation Y starting. Finally the introduction of communicators e.g. cell phones has lowered the attention span to 30 seconds, look at the phenomenon of twitter. 1 to 2 sentences to explain what you are doing or where you are located.
The only thing giving most kids a scare these days is not being the first one to drink from the apple kool-aid. I do not believe most people will fear for their lives for long. It is a fight or flight response used for preservation, but to continue to dwell on a problem you have minimal control over seems irrational to me. If you change your life to an extreme to avoid places or people you think will harm you, well then to paraphrase a quote used excessively after 9/11, "the terrorists have already won".

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:46 PM

Anonymous

Clint

No! I totally disagree, and have facts to prove it.The Tampa bay area has asked some of the smarter kids in high school thier take in finding out now that Bin-pig is dead. and how it is changing or affecting their lives if at all. The results were in the paper today and a friend that is a schoolteacher has made me privy to some reports. The Majority have said they were small enough to be scared when 9-11 happened and then all the airport security and that crap for the next year or two definately made them rethink their plans to be what they really wanted to be in life! As per one girl wrote " I wanted to be a United nations language director in new York but after the 911 and not being able to catch the man and men responsible, my parents and Guidence councellor suggested I not take the languages course that I wanted to follow for my own safety" Now I am getting to my second year in college and will never had the chance I wanted to start young to learn all the translating languages. That is just one very smart girl, who was not told how we kicked anybodys ass who messed with us and got them no matter how long it takes, Instead she was headed to another direction, out of fear. Not given hope and accomplishment and freedom to stick with what she wanted. Everybody took that dream and let the scum take it away from her and all the other kids dreams. There is not enough space to write them all. You may have let the terriosts won, but I never did and a lot of good people did not either. I think you are wrong in your last statement period JLC Prove me different ?

3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:23 PM

clintlebo

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John

So you think that if you change something you had originally planned on doing out of terror, you have not lost the psychological battle waged by terrorist?

There is more to warfare than bullets and explosions. You said it yourself, your father taught you not to be afraid of anything (I will never believe this statement from anyone, but I can not prove it either). So why can't other people be taught to mitigate fear and continue with their lives?

As for trying to prove your opinion wrong is an inflammatory statement. I stand by my synopsis, if I want to become an english major so I can type efficiently and with minimal grammatical and spelling errors, I will do that. I will not allow terrorist, family members, the community, or someone on Gunslot to alter my path. That is the American way, not bowing to terrorists.

clint

edited: John, do you totally disagree with my entire response, or just parts of it. Please also if you are using facts, please cite them so I can continue my research and learn from your sources.

thank you

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:09 AM

Anonymous

Clint

You are right on some points, and totally agree on never letting anyone stop us from doing what we want out of life. I should Have been more selective about your remarks, but I had a Migraine and should have gotten off before stating all facts, no excusess though, If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. But Prove me wrong.I was merely trying to say that my teacher friend and his students, or there generation has had a start of no bin-scum and they all had high hopes of whatever they were going to do with there lives. Ten years later-, and now a lot or almost all I should say of this particular age, are happy that he is gone and afraid that there is going to be somebody to retaliate, at the same time. They had to grow up with this threat and a lot of them changed their plans and oppurtunitys, before BinScum was picked off. One was my niece, top of her class, father always saved for her College tuition, and always wanted to work in big city lawfirm. After 2 years of college now, and was approached last year by law firm in new York and 2 in Chicago, because she is at top of her clas and asked to intern there. She made the decision herself that it would be too risky and upsetting to go to a big city and have a chance of being a victim of terriosm. Now she is interning in Naples law firm here. I asked does his death change your decision any? She says I feel relieved Uncle John, and men and women That are as tough as you are and were are protecting us at all costs. But at the same time I feel guilty not helping in some way, and yes BIN-SCUM did make all of us kids go from, I do not understand why or who is this guy terriost we are hunting down and why he killed all those people and had the power to convince others to follow him and his orders even suicidal orders, is unreal to me. I just know that with his threat gone, maybe other kids will not have to pick and choose like my fellow classmates did. No matter what the choice. What do you want me to say to that, everybody raised their kid wrong! LLt thinke his kids are going to be bad asses and never be in danger without being prepared. Wrong, you can be prepared all you want, and step off a curb and boom you are dead from a drunk driver. These kids grew up scared over the Taliban and it's leader. Just like when we had drills in my day over atom and Nuclear attack. But I was raised not to fear anything, like the bible says, I will walk threw the shadow of death and fear no evil. Case slosed for me, One of the reasons, my father would come home from work and a big deal in Gov and experimenting etc, and every night we had to line up and he asked my mother who was bad this time? My mother would say I don't know which one did it. That meant we all got the belt across our ass and backs for two reasons. 1 for one of us not owning up to the guilty deed, 2 we could not squeal on each other. So the first one that cryed in my fathers opinion was the guilty one. But he had to beat us all to find that out. At 8years old, he beat my brothers and they all cried, I was always last to get too. When he started on me , I would not cry, and that would get him wound up more. My mother would say you know John will not give in so stop. One night at 8years old he did not stop and would not unless I cried, I turned and said to him when he was out of breath from hitting me and said Dad I will not give you the satisfaction of crying when you punish us all every night and only 1 is guilty. He stopped and said, you are right John, and for now on when someone is or has done something wrong, I want to be told and then told how you are going to fix it, there will be no more whippings in this house anymore. John He said you are my 2nd son and very special, and if you have what it takes to go thru what I have been putting all of you threw and figure out that is what I wanted, How did you know? I said because you are my father and teach us not to lie and set life by example, so I took a chance and stopped the emotion of pain and told you what you were trying to teach us. He cried and hugged me and told me he loved us all and there will never be a beating in his house ever again, just leadership. That was the start of not being afraid of anything life put in front or back of me Clint. I will not bring citations or medals or KIAs I did. they were justifyed. I hope you understand and everybody else that I am not bragging. It is just a fact. I have been in the paper so many times and did not even know it, and never gave permission to use my name, sothey could not. John

3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:19 AM

TLtactical

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John,

I agree that you have to start somewhere... This is true, this one just got so glamorized for more than 10 years that it is amazing! I would think if this was really a priority for the US, there would have been much more attention given to this and actions carried out sooner. With reward offers and so many incentives to turn him in I would think even a devout follower would have been mighty tempted to turn him in.

I used to be pretty tough and even brave in my way, then I had children... Now I worry about everything out there. Not for my sake, but for my little ones that I am honored to protect and serve as long as I draw breath. We need to be strong as a nation and strike down with fury any whom threaten our safety as long as it is a legitimate threat and thus is imminent danger.

Bullying: My children are all required to study martial arts until they graduate high school. My son is 5 1/2 years old and he should earn his green belt in June when they test. He is currently studying mixed martial arts: Karate, Jiu Jitsu and aikido

My children all learn to shoot and practice, also swim like fish, know which plants to eat, how to hunt and fish and even find water in the desert. I believe in preparedness.

I appreciate all your comments, I enjoy a good discussion!

If you ever need any gear let me know and we will take good care of you.

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:57 PM

Anonymous

TLT

You are not only a smart vet but a smart and well prepaired dad. But I have seen to many mentally challenged kids and so many teachers and counselors take the side of the bully and it is easier that way, because the bully has a father that was a bully, and yells louder than the challenged kid. Obviously you have your act together and I appreciate the comments and discussion. The years that seperate us are a lot of in betweens that happened. Yes someday I would like to meet you, and thanks again. I am proud to know you and hope to see your kids make daddy proud someday, or should I say prouder than now. If I live that long. JLC

3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:20 AM

samD

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Bin Laden

So this US Navy Seal walks into a bar.

Bartender give me a Bin Laden!

Bartender asks, what is that?

Two Shots and a splash of water!!!!

3 years 11 weeks ago, 10:57 AM

TLtactical

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John,

Hitler being dead was huge because of the immensity of his wrong doing. In modern times there is no single person who can claim greater infamy than Hitler. His death allowed his command that supposedly "merely followed orders" to break apart since most were not true believers, but rather political entities seeking to enrich their station life life by any means necessary. Opportunistic people are often found in the worst places seeking advancement even through opprobrious acts.

I make sure my son questions teacher and evaluates facts the best he can at his age to critically think for himself. He knows to ask me when he is not sure as I will no mislead him since his best interest and mine are one and the same. Schools teach whatever propaganda those in power wish to imprint into the youth during their socialization/indoctrination process. That being said, we all have our work cut out for even ourselves to tell fact from fiction.

My wife in Native American, Cree and Lakota... We have a different view of Thanksgiving and the atrocities committed against these people. That is a whole other story. What we must do is learn from the past so we shall not be condemned to keep repeating it through ignorance. When we must fight, we must fight to win and then move on. Some battles have no end, and most have no actual winners as most combat vets can attest. Even when the war is won, our friends and those who created us as soldiers are dead. I think this country needs more battle proven leaders to make choices drawn through experience when deciding violent actions. Obama is not battle proven at all, he actually scares me with his naivety.

It seems we are pretty much on a similar page... I am merely more pessimistic about much actual value this one small guy had... I think we are in a similar place otherwise on the other bad guys...

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:03 AM

TLtactical

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I don't see many parallels between the two other than being "bad guys"...

Hitler and Bin Laden though are similar in that who knows if either really were the ones killed or if they did not go on and live. Hitler's health ailments would not have likely allowed him to live well for very long, and his opiate addiction was not healthy either. It is too convenient thought that bodies seem to be discarded immediately as if a deal had been struck and they are in in witness relocation somewhere...

You are correct that "people latch onto symbols"... In a world where most people lack true identity or purpose they are many times desperate to find something to believe in and follow. Life from a nihilistic perspective is almost unlivable to some people, hence drug abuse and alcoholism.

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:12 PM

Ishootdaily

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TLtactical wrote:
I don't see many parallels between the two other than being "bad guys"...
Hitler and Bin Laden though are similar in that who knows if either really were the ones killed or if they did not go on and live. Hitler's health ailments would not have likely allowed him to live well for very long, and his opiate addiction was not healthy either. It is too convenient thought that bodies seem to be discarded immediately as if a deal had been struck and they are in in witness relocation somewhere...

they are there, if you look...

Quote:
You are correct that "people latch onto symbols"... In a world where most people lack true identity or purpose they are many times desperate to find something to believe in and follow. Life from a nihilistic perspective is almost unlivable to some people, hence drug abuse and alcoholism.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
which is exactly where Hitler and Bin Laden are reflections. The innate ability to take such people and bend them to their way of thinking to the point that the person not only swears allegiance to them and them alone, but to do their killing or to die upon their command of whim.

Hitler used the depression and it's negative effects upon the German Economy against the German people among other things.

Bin Laden uses the plight of Arabic people at the hands of their own Governments against them.

With Hitler it was the Jews...

With Bin Ladne it is the Great Satan, the USA...

The cause of everything wrong in the (fill in blank) peoples lives and societies. Go after those vial ones and everything will be good...

again, Symbolism and mastery in the Symbols conception, presentation and evolution. Leading to the path they desire the people to walk down... They design and perpetrate a Dogma full of their own Symbols...

Hell, create your own religion but do not call it that, just base everything upon known existing ones (why recreate the whole wheel) with it's own Dogma and Symbols, if enough swallow and follow you too can pass around the Cyanide laced Cherry Koolaid in the end and everyone left can debate the meaning of it for years to come.

(sarcasm with irony drizzled on top, ran out of a spoon full of sugar)

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:39 AM

tallguy007

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EVIL

Both WERE but hitler was the worst but there is always some one else

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 11 weeks ago, 1:05 PM

TLtactical

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Can you show any conditions that would increase jet fuel's capability to actually melt steel?

How do you explain huge explosions 40+ stories below these planes and then the collapse if not explosives?

I hear people going both ways on this and both provide valid arguments... However, I do not find any evidence that says it is probable to have happened the way we are told it did.

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 2:09 PM

Vaquero

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Chimney effect

at that vertical distance the entire elevator shaft became a jet engine.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 3:46 PM

Ishootdaily

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Sears commissioned architects Skidmore, Owings and Merrill (SOM) to produce a structure to be one of the largest office buildings in the world. Their team of architect Bruce Graham and structural engineer Fazlur Khan designed the building as nine square "tubes", each essentially a separate building, clustered in a 3x3 matrix. All nine tubes would rise up to the 50th floor of the building. At the 50th floor, the northwest and southeast tubes end, and the remaining seven continue up. At the 66th floor, the northeast and the southwest tubes end. At the 90th floor, the north, east, and south tubes end. The remaining west and center tubes continue up to the 108th floor.

9 Square Structural Weight Bering Tubes.... Tied together by the Floors/Ceilings and Steel (Iron) beams and a lattice of connecting Joist and Periling. Bolted and Welded into place.

At different levels the number of Tubes changed as the building tapered in. All 9 of those tubes went to the 50th floor, and they claims of demo explosions are said to have happened around the 47 th floor. Convenient that you go from 9 to 7 of those tubes within 3 floors of the so called demo charges...

Each of those tubes would help in creating one big ass Blast Furnace. or depending on what level you are on, it could be considered 9, 7 or one HUGE one with a number of Air intakes and exhausts.

How could it *not* get hot enough to heat metal to the point that the molecules are forced apart causing it to loose all structural effectiveness and strength?

Not even taking the fact that Heat destroys all usefulness of steel as a solid into consideration,

Lets think about the Reinforced Concrete.

“Explosive spalling” is a term used by laboratory technicians to define a spall that occurs with a loud popping sound. This does not mean that the concrete creates projectiles endangering occupants or emergency responders. The spalled concrete typically drops to the floor around the column or may even remain somewhat attached. Since major spalling occurs when temperatures exceed 815 degrees C (1500 degrees F), occupants or personnel would not be in the area of the spalling.

It pancaked, and it did just what should have been expected if they had ever considered everything to fall into place exactly like it did on September 11...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 4:17 PM

jay sedler

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correct on all points you made there bud.the info about concrete under heat is right on too,i do concrete for a living,and every concrete fire pit we have poured cracks just from the heat of a regular cook fire.they were never designed to take a heavy impact like that,or that kind of fire,or the downward impact of the falling upper stories.these conspiracy theories would be entertaining if they were only a little more intelligently fabricated.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:34 PM

Ishootdaily

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...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:59 PM

luckybychoice

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TLT

please read my forum topic "debunking the 9/11 Bomb Theory",click on the link,thanks

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 1:16 PM

TLtactical

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ronin1604: Bin Laden

Ronin,

I agree with you here that it was poorly handled, but of course the SEALs are true professionals and their end of it as usual is spectacular. This is expected of them and they deliver.

I also agree that this was handled less than professionally in its advertisements and pictures being posted everywhere... All we need is this new martyr motivating more hate against American people across the globe... We are acting like the Muslim extremists parading bodies in the streets!

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:21 PM

luckybychoice

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TLT one more item

the difference is osama started it,a sucker punch killing thousands of civillians,non combatants at several Bombed sites all over the world.When the world trade centers collapsed we got the TV showing us all kinds of moslems dancing in the streets about that,dancing over a sucker punch on noncombatants,lots of people had no real idea what or who moslems even were.

and then we found out osama was the leader,the self proclaimed chosen one,a multi-millionare that had fought against the Russians and had a following because of that and he established training camps for the hajis,and filled their heads with anti USA propaganda.

Now he has eluded the USA for 10 years,but at least 6 years was right there in that Pakistan compound right by a Pakistan equivilant of West Point,so thats really 4 years or less that osama gave the USA the slip,where he wasn't being helped by the Pakistan government(now theres a conspiracy theory we ought to research right).

so now osama gets shot dead,and the TV shows Americans dancing in the street,all things being equal now right? wrong.These Americans dancing in the street were celebrating the end of the life of a lunatic that devoted himself to trying to end the life of Americans,for no reason other than we have the freedoms he is trying so desperately to keep away from his fellow moslems.He was the brain behind the sucker punch,nobody feels bad for a bully getting his.Last point, the intel the USA is going to get from the computers,phones,and napkin sketchs are going to save lives,many lives,even moslem lives,hell i'm dancing right now.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 11 weeks ago, 6:04 PM

Anonymous

Vaq

Another words you and Lbc & ISD were right. JLC

3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:30 AM

TLtactical

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Clint,

I agree with you the freedom of the press is paramount to a free society. The idea behind the media is that it should be telling fact and not fiction or biased propaganda. Without this reporting of events people would not not much of anything at all. The trouble is that we seem to have a lot of liberally biased media that report what they think the truth is in their confused little minds. New media should only report facts and not add in the little things that lead people to believe something else.

The media should not be allowed to publish everything, and primarily should be barred from using anything that is a threat to national security or individuals security. A do no harm balancing test is useful here. When in doubt, keep it out.

Freedom of Information Act: This is one of those logical laws enacted to make things dummy proof, and of course still created ambiguity. I think it will not matter how plain and simple anything is, there will surely always be some idiot that will not get it. Also, many idiots (Reporters) that will do ANYTHING to get their name out by breaking a new story..

Good posting Clint, with citations even!

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:40 AM

TLtactical

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I see a small similarity between the two... It is still pretty faint though... People tried to say Sadam Hussein and Hitler as well... When you want to demonize someone you use Hitler as he was the most extreme out there in our last couple centuries.

Soldiers are in essence supposed to swear allegiance to the cause/country and thus follow all orders. In our country you have the right to disobey any unlawful orders, but then how many people want to face a court martial trial to determine if they were right? Think Abu Girab, and Nazi Germany there... Everyone is always just following orders... Blame Mob mentality, fear of reprisal, or just the evil inside our hearts...

Obama is one of those demegouges who preach change and blame others... He gets people to almost worship him... Remember when he got elected and the black lady from the projects was being interviewed and she got quoted saying "Praise the lord, Barack Obama is the 1st African American President, not I won't ever have to worry about paying my rent" I don't know about you guys here, but that comment really confused me, and it was even on TV, national media! It seems ACORN and whatever other goofballs really got out there and convinced the tired, the poor, the uneducated and lost that he was some sort of messiah!

So my main point is that most revolutionary leaders are charismatic and use the plight of the people and a scapegoat to their advantage when they promise change... One must in many ways be careful about people promising change, which may be why people many times are reluctant to change... Things can always get better, but also worse too...

Good posting ISHOOTDAILY....

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:42 PM

Ishootdaily

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Ya know...

TLtactical wrote:
When you want to demonize someone you use Hitler as he was the most extreme out there in our last couple centuries.

I use Hitler?

you know, I have responded to this in a number of ways and deleted each before completing it.

I'll just keep it to this....

I do not need a symbol (Hitler) to point out the fact that Bin Laden was a Murdering, Sick Fuck that needed a MK3A2 stuffed up his ass while it was Televised....

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 10 weeks ago, 4:10 AM

jay sedler

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isd

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN brother,ive used hitler in a comarison,but bin laden was all bad,and if left to his own devices hed be as bad as hitler.no need to compare the two,they both are bad,and bin ladin was a fuckstick,that was everything america dosnt stand for!ISD,i like your political views from what ive heard from you on gunslot,maybe you should run for president,or any of the other red blooded americans ive heard views on this forum from.

we should all vote gunslot at all the elections maybe...lol...kinda jokin,kinda serious.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:54 AM

TLtactical

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John,

No worries, it has taken me days and I have still not responded to everyone here yet... This is a good discussion!

You have made a valid argument, and I am not arguing totally against it, only adding that there is usually much more to these stories... 9/11 for one as I stated does not seem as transparent and I do blame our government for it and feel they are likely involved...

Children need to be lead by example this I agree... Also this being said we need to be just and not just pretty sure about what we do. What if Bin Laden is our scapegoat for bad foreign policy? The CIA seems pretty shady and their entire approach to asset manipulation makes them professional liars, not really trusted intelligence operatives... Who is to say which side if any side at all anyone is one anymore? I feel everything is so mislead that we need more factual information to make these determinations... Maybe our government had this info, they know more than we do, but how can we even trust them?

I teach my family that security is an illusion that we all hide in fear behind. We need to all become more proactive and learn truly how to provide defense for ourselves and families. martial arts and weapons are one thing, but also education and the ability to know your enemies as well: Know their state of mind, beliefs, motivations, limitations and ect...

Vietman I agree was a disgrace... Men were forced to fight many times for a cause not their own and they were treated disgracefully when they finally got home, if they ever made it home at all. That is a really long other subject that intrigues me as well, but I will never get through replies on this one if we get headed there...

John,

I appreciate your posting and truly see where you are coming from. I think I may just be tired of war and fighting and I just feel most times it does not get us far. When we have to though I would support absolute destruction of everyone that is a true enemy... It is funny though... They asked me when the psych major was doing my out-processing how I felt and all I could say was tired... I am really tired... I wanted to sleep for weeks, and was just really really tired from everything. I still get tired when I think about it all but I have no remorse or real negative feelings about the job or my actions... I was just more tired than ever before in my life at that time...

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:43 AM

Anonymous

TL

enough I know how you feel when you are finnally home. So no more from me on thatsubject. You are a heroe in my book tl and beautiful family. JOhn

3 years 11 weeks ago, 8:57 AM

TLtactical

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I believe that statistic... Many people are pretty much incapable of critical thought because their brains now are wired to live vicariously through artificial life (TV, Movies, Internet) there is just little aptitude for any greatness left today.

That may not have been where you were going with your posting, but it does seem to me that people are dropping intelligence with each generation...

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 11:54 AM

clintlebo

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TLT

Yup, you are right on the money. Thank you for removing the convolution and getting right to the point!!

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:02 AM

TLtactical

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John Campbell: Family

Well John, we are headed to Florida to go to Disney World... I was there last in 1988 when I was my son's age or a bit older I see...

You seem like a good guy and make good discussion on here... If you want to meet I will probably be there the end of the month for a week and then road tripping down to the keys for a day or two...

If you ever need any guns or gear let me know... I am the guy for that stuff... Check out our website if you get a chance, we are in the process of a total redesign hopefully before December it will get done and be more "Fancy" www.ColemanTyler.com We are "Your Second Amendment Fulfillment Store" M4 rifles start at $569.95 too! That gives you a heads up into my Harley riding gun toting personality...

Have a great weekend!

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:36 AM

Anonymous

TL

Thankyou for the comradery and good discussion. DW is fantastic, but I am on the other side of state and have to much on my plate to meet you, though no disrespect intended. If you can afford it though, for yourself go to the racing pavillion and I forget now if it is Richard Petty or who but I did it and you actually get to drive 8 laps in one his cars from Nascar. It was one of the brightest spots of my life and worth every dime, and wife videod it for eternity. Then you followed another car in front of you to show you the lines to follow and I never hit the brake the whole time. Do not brush off Epcot center, especially for the kids and you, Go to one country to another and I think the Norway exibit gives you and kids a cool boat ride, and the Mexico ex. gives one too and you can have a sit down meal w/ a band that walks around. Too many things to mention that are cool there, but one more in the England Pavillion, they usually have a band playing in the back and there is seating and you have to walk back there or you will miss it. Usually impressions bands Like Beatles and Rolling Stones etc. Have a good time w/kids too, and they will love epcot center and ride threw the huge world ball first, and kids will love the video game pavillion and rides etc. Good for you and family! JOHN

3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:05 AM

TLtactical

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luckybychoice: Where is the link?

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 9:17 AM

TLtactical

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Devil's advocate here only...

Who is more justified to dance in the streets about death?

1. Americans that believe Bin laden was the most significant bad guy for us in teh world?
or
2. The Muslims groups that celebrated the untouchable western world that stands for all they hate and in essence are the masters of infidelity...

To make sure this does not go the wrong way... 9/11 WAS TOTALLY WRONG, unethical, unprofessional, and an action that does not garner any respect for ANYONE involved with its execution. I hope we learn more about the attack and KILL EVERYONE that had ANYTHING AT ALL to do with it VIOLENTLY. Hopefully that comment avoids you guys thinking I am against retribution for the attack... I just think more people were involved and probably our own people and government... They ALL NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, not just Bin Laden, ALL OF THEM!

Military forces even during war should be mindful of collateral damage and the taking of civilian lives is wrong. PERIOD. No excuses. Bin Laden if he wanted a justified war would be justified to declare such a war and attack military and government personnel, but not civilians. Being that those were a majority of his targets it seems strange from him to dishonor his cause in such a way like killing so many civilians... This does not seem as logical. Of course we can blindly state that Muslims are not logical, but hopefully everyone here knows that Muslim and Christianity and the Jewish faith as well all have the same god and all books constantly refer to being peaceful and avoiding violence. It is only the bastards of each faith that pervert these teachings to propagate their evil.

Should any of us be dancing in the streets about death? While death may be necessary in some cases, it should never be taken lightly or as fun... What we have here is a difference of perception between different groups of people. I like to look at both sides when making my determinations and understand why people are thinking they way they do... This is why I started this discussion... To get everyone to think more about the situation at hand and see where that would lead us all.

I appreciate your comments and am enjoying the discussion!

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 11 weeks ago, 2:13 PM

jay sedler

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TLT

we dont have to belive osama was the bigest bad guy to celebrate his death.he was A bad guy and we got him,and if people want to celebrate it good for them.yes we have many more to go,but people like an excuse to party,and americans usualy band together when somting extreme good or bad happens.

as for who is more "justified" as you put it here is all definitions that apply to the use of the word justified in your context.as per http://www.thefreedictionary.com/justified

jus·ti·fy (jst-f)
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v.tr.
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To declare free of blame; absolve.
3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.
4. Law
a. To demonstrate sufficient legal reason for (an action taken).

without going into my anger over your wording and without going into how you seem intent on bringing down americans morale for celebrating osamas death ill say only that we certainly are justified in celebrating,they attacked civilians.i understand why the did it,but that dosnt make it right.if you want to keep debating i will but sounds like we all kinda agree the fight is far from over,and we can all pretty much agree the taliban did the towers with planes,so lets just stop while you are behind.making a long explanation for a comment like that dosnt help me feel any better about your question of who is more justified.hitler felt justified in killing the "infidel" jews,just as bin ladin felt just in killing infidel americans.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 5:01 PM

Ishootdaily

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John Campbell :

The Power of Myth

The Hero With a Thousand Faces and Masks of God

Creative Mythology

--------------------------------------------------------------------

you might find some interesting perspective in them

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 11 weeks ago, 3:54 PM

tallguy007

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TL hello

I'm over in stpete few hours west of rat town (orlando) if u like pizza uno pizza reria google it will be looking at ur site. TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 10 weeks ago, 11:54 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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TLT, I was of the same opinion as you at first regarding the death of OBL. But then I watched a report on this that brought up something I didn't think about. His death really was symbolic and that, in and of itself, is a good thing. But the REAL payoff on this operation was the intel we collected at the highest level of the enemy's organization. This will pay off for some time too, I believe.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 10 weeks ago, 12:16 PM

Ishootdaily

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.....

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 10 weeks ago, 1:50 PM

TLtactical

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Your Quote" Without going into my anger over your wording and without going into how you seem intent on bringing down americans morale for celebrating osamas death ill say only that we certainly are justified in celebrating,they attacked civilians.i understand why the did it,but that dosnt make it right.if you want to keep debating i will but sounds like we all kinda agree the fight is far from over,and we can all pretty much agree the taliban did the towers with planes,so lets just stop while you are behind.making a long explanation for a comment like that dosnt help me feel any better about your question of who is more justified.hitler felt justified in killing the "infidel" jews,just as bin ladin felt just in killing infidel americans."

Jay,

Why would you feel anger? I seem to have gotten a good discussion going here and we have all pointed out our feeling and ideas here in a pretty amiable atmosphere. Anger seems to go against everything I have been posting here.

I have not ever said we should not feel relieved that he is gone, only that celebrating seems to be one of the things people are pointing out at the Muslim world over... I am Southern Baptist, not a muslim and even at church they are a bit extreme over all of this. I like to play Devil's advocate more than anything and get people stirred up and voicing their opinions... It seems nobody is paying attention to our country's financial crisis, only boogeymen...

Bringing down morale? really... I am not sure what more to say on that one other than morale should not really be based only on the death of a bad guy. How sad is that if our country bases its worth of killing a bad guy alone. What ever happened to hard work and freedom getting you whatever your dreams may hold...

I usually avoid arguments online where everyone seems to have so much artificial courage. You are in California and I am in Arizona... Since you seem to be the single person here choosing fighting words towards me I cordially invite you to Arizona to settle this like men, otherwise let's avoid insults and showing that you did not really read or comprehend anything I was writing. So I will see you in Arizona this week or don't bother post anything to me again.

TL

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 10 weeks ago, 5:43 PM

jay sedler

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TLT fighting words?

i only said your question of who is justified them of us makes me angry,and the fact that you seem to be upset at americans celebrating osamas death seems like you are looking down on them.im not being tough online,read my post again.i said before people want an excuse to party,and americans seem to set aside our differances when somthing extream good or bad happens.i also said before we have a long way to go before we win,and there are lots of things we need to fix too.i dont belive the theory of american government blowing up the towers,and i think the idea of t has ne logical basis.how is this fighting words?i never insulted you,i simply stated my position,and said lets u and i not debate each other on it anymore.you seriously invited me to arizona to "settle it like men"?what the fuck dude,thats acting tough online, not me.thats the stupidest thing ive seen on gunslot ever.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 10 weeks ago, 1:52 PM

TLtactical

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tallguy007: Pizza

We might head that way, we will have to see how much time we have left on this trip. I plan to look at some boats as well. If I find boats to see there it would work, otherwise hours for pizza might be a long way!

Thanks Man!

Is it your pizza place?

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
3 years 10 weeks ago, 2:39 PM

Reaper308

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thumbs up

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 10 weeks ago, 9:05 AM

jay sedler

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reaper...

no shit hu?seems we all pretty much agree,at least on most points however some of us hold a different opinion on some issues, and thats ok,but it seems to be more of an arguement in lots of cases not a discussion.

P.S. pic looks just like me as a kid...lol,but seriously it does......haha

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!

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