Forums / Gun Discussion / Self Defense for Women.

3 years 42 weeks ago, 12:57 PM

manu2014

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Any help would be appreciated. A friend came to me about his friend who lives in Raleigh and had 2 men try to force their way into to her apartment. She was able to close the door and call 911 but it has scared the daylights out of her. He wants me to help her in selecting a gun or other defense tool and give her training on it. The other thing I was thinking was websites dedicated to women and self defense. The typical search turns up the usual suspects. I was hoping that with the years of experience on this site that someone would have a little more insight or personal experience to save me some time.

Thanks,
Kurt

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 42 weeks ago, 1:17 PM

Reaper308

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womens self defense

there are plenty of womens defense classes at ranges and martial arts studios in my area. I suggest that she looks for something similar in her area... and yes, buy a gun. I usually suggest a 9mm for women because it gets the job done and recoil is pretty managable. The size and type of pistol depend on her budget and intended uses (ccw, strictly nightstand, etc...) I also recommend a personal key chain OC spray that contains atleast 10% Oleoresin Capsicum. That way she'll always have it with her. I usually suggest something like the ASP defender in the link below.That stuff is no joke! (check your state for size and content restrictions)
http://sgcusa.com/Personal-Protection-Pepperspray/c206_21/index.html?osC...

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
3 years 42 weeks ago, 6:22 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

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1. The SHU rating of OC sprays is more important that the % rating....a 10% solution of 1 million SHU OC generally takes longer to take effect and less severe initial effects that a lesser % of a higher SHU. Fox Labs uses a relatively low % of high-SHU OC for instance. The stuff I issue my guys at work is 5%/2million SHU. A jalapeno pepper might fall into the 1000-4000 SHU catgory as a comparison. High-% sprays may wear off less quickly, but the first few seconds of an attack are much more critical to me than 5 minutes or 20 minutes later.

2. Self-defense is self-defense, and I think a lot of instructors and others unintentionally slight female students by directing them towards 'female-specific' instruction. An all-female class might make some female students have a better 1st experience, but the techniques, devices and methods used by a large male to subdue another large male should translate to any person or opponent. Eyes are eyes, blood is blood, bone is bone, pain is pain. If a technique works on a 250lb blowhard but not on a 130lb duster/icehead, then your training has been inefficient. Likewise, if you have to teach one thing to a 100lb female and another to a 250lb brawler, then neither is getting the full benefit of the instruction. Sure, the brawler should be able to take advantage of his reach/strength, but he should not be dependent on it. Likewise, a female should not accept that her sex relegates her to 'soft' techniques or that she can never build speed power focus mindset timing or other successful elements of combat.

3. Your friend (and everyone else in my humble opinion) should never be 'satisfied' or 'secure', and should never stop learning and training. Security leads to complacency, and and complacency kills.

3 years 42 weeks ago, 8:06 AM

Larry Wagner

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TXLUCKYGUY

Nice post, very nice. Been trying to learn something about the sprays for both my wife & I. #1 of your post gave me more info than anything so far.
Now, section #2. I could not agree more. Right on the money.. Thanks.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 2:40 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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OC

I've used Punch police OC on the job for so many years I've never seen any reason to switch. I currently issue the 2K3 non-flammable version since we also issue Tasers. Punch also makes foggers, 'grenades', keyhole attachments etc that are useful on the job....many other OC makers do not offer these items.

That said, OC sprays with an alcohol base are more quick-acting in my experience. The alcohol actually seems to make the initial pain more intense.

A friend went thru an Instructor course using Fox Labs OC and was sold. He had been through my Punch instructor's course and said the Fox stuff hurt worse, acted a little more quickly, and wore off 5-10 minutes sooner than the Punch II stuff I'd used on him.

OC has its limits, and no substitute for exhausting awareness and empty-hand training.

3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:04 PM

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You shoot at Tac Pro, correct? My buddy is looking for a place to shoot his .50 BMG.........Can he shoot it there? I've heard they have a 1000 yd range, but not sure if thats true.

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 7:25 PM

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OC is one tool, but

as anybody who has been sprayed can tell you, it doesn't work right away. It can be effective against someone who is attempting to rape or assault you, but cross-contamination is highly likely, so I'm a huge advocate of professional exposure to it to show you that there's no reason to freak out when you take some. TX, you'd probably know, do police departments offer OC contamination to people who want to carry it?

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 1:59 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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OC/.50

1. I only get out to TacPro a couple times a year....you have to shoot a short qualifying course to use the 1000yd range. I think the 200yd and 500yd ranges are open-use. Call Bill down there and he'll lay it all out. I've shot .50s on their 200, 500 and 1000yd ranges at various times but havent been down there in months.

2. I don't know of any program where a dept offers contamination or instruction.....it would vary from agency to agency. As long as it's an industry standard OC spray (Fox, DefTec, Punch, et al) then the decon/aid procedures are the same----water, fresh air, and time. I can't recommend or endorse a person dosing themselves without instruction for obvious reasons, but I know organizations that varioiusly spray each individual in face, spray a cloud and let folks walk thru, use a fogger in an enclosed room for a few seconds, or even spray the stuff into a coffee mug and let individuals wipe a fingerful into a single eyelid. There are minor but noteworthy risks in OC exposure in certain instances, so I'd recommend taking a 1-day class. It'll look good on record at the very least, and hopefully the instructor will be willing to do an exposure in addition to normal training.

3 years 41 weeks ago, 2:22 PM

greg az

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Half of that was to get past the panic state.. It's not uncommon to hear of someone saying thier OC or CS resistant.. ie Inmate Jones has built up an immunity to being gassed as he's had it so much.. Nope.. It might be possible to adapt over a long term, but generally the case is Inmate Jones simply knows it goes away, and that he WILL be able to breath if he doesn't panic.

I would shoot OC into a trash can at the begining of briefing a couple times a week.. It had its intended results.. My staff would fare better in conditions that were contaminated.. Fights in chow halls were notorious for bringing both Staff and Inmates to thier knees.. Any enclosed space is a nasty place after it's been "fogged" and having Staff that were past OC "panic" was a great way to keep control of a situation..

Reap.. Yep that word combination "lit" up a NSA spider somewhere.. but don't ya think were pretty well monitored anyway.. Any site that is A. firearms related. B. has a strong political bend either R or L. is going to be monitored.. Least i would hope so.. I sorta think who ever has "our" watch probably enjoys the job.. OK.. Maybe not yesterday, but on most days..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:37 PM

Larry Wagner

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Greg, CS vs OC?

Greg, what's the difference, I did the gas chamber thing with CS gas before, whats the difference between the 2??

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:05 PM

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Maybe the ones who watches us knows were pretty interesting but fairly harmless bunch, what if guys like TF, and all the other super secret danger rangers could be the monitors trying to stir up dissention in the ranks? Paranoid me? No I am not I always were this tinfoil hat!

3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:06 PM

Larry Wagner

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R3

Very stylish Adam, looks good??????

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:10 PM

HKBauer

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Larry

I would take a picture but I would lose my soul in the camera. LOL

3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:11 PM

Larry Wagner

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LOL

No don't do that !!!!!

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:11 PM

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R3, that's why I wear a tinfoil hat everytime i sign on to gunslot.

3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:31 PM

greg az

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Adam.. I don't know if you saw the earlier post i was referring to, but there was one on Hitler.. I made a joke at the end of it saying he could still be around with OBL for all we knew.. and made a comment that had a combination of words in it that the NSA does have spiders alert on. Reap was absolutely right about that.. Not that were not watched anyway, but his point (correctly) was that any paragraph containing key words gets an auto alert from embedded spiders on the net..

Are we being watched.. Well duh.. Guessing we should be, take personal feelings out of the equation and im thinking it's a rational thing to want any group of armed individuals with strong political feelings monitored.. I'm equally sure that who ever does that monitoring has come to the same conclusion about us as we have.

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:39 PM

HKBauer

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Greg

I seen it that was in my mind when I wrote that. LOL

3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:34 PM

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No doubt

Should be absolutely no doubt that people are being watched & kept track of .

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:40 PM

greg az

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CS is the old gas.. OC is the pepper.. pretty simple..we had both, but OC is best..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 3:44 PM

Larry Wagner

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Thank's Greg

So when you hear talk of "Mace" there talking CS???? & the pepper is what the LE folks use now that has some sort of paint or dye in it??? Wife has been wanting one, so I'll keep looking at the OC!!!

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:17 PM

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OC and CS

They are both chemical irritants, but they're used differently. CS isn't directly applied like OC is. Some people have a natural resistance to each, but they don't always carry over. CS doesn't bother me at all. I can go into the CS chamber with no mask, lick the windows, and all I'll have is cleared sinuses. OC, on the other hand, kicks my ass. I would literally take a Tazer shot every day for a month if it was a choice between that and getting sprayed again. Yep, I've been tazed, so I know what I'm talking about there.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 10:28 PM

Larry Wagner

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Run

How ya doing?, Thanks for the info, BH has been asking for Mace? Told her I have not seen mace in years, must be a generic term now. So I think the OC is what were gonna get.
More power to ya man, CS rips me a new one.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 11:27 PM

greg az

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I don't handle CS as easy as Dave, but can tolerate OC fair, or least sounds like a bit better than our buddy. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it in anyway shape or form.. just might handle it a bit better cause i've been exposed to it so much.. Again no "immunity" just know its going to be ok, and not as much panic/pain..

Got a funny story for you guys.. i had just taken over a shift at Perryville on Phx west side.. and as ALWAYS happens with the women (hated working with the women) we had the nightly "not going to do it".. at which point they get gassed and do it, but they got the attention they wanted. You have to do 10 lbs of paper work.. and on, and on, and on.. Skip to the chase.. i get the call on the radio that inmate whatevers not whatevering..(really can't remember) So as the new shift cdr figure i'll show staff and inmates that i gave up school cause it had recess..

SOOOOO i grab the Israeli fogger (big ass just what ya think it is).. and say on the radio, (knowing the staff or in front of her cell and she can hear me) . "ok im 19 (in route) and im bringing the big can of woop ass" (not the most professional, but i could get away with it, and staff loved it) so im walking down to the cell, which by the way were STUPID in design.. they were set in a big L two stories out side like a motel.. the wings could see each other..Just poor design period... anway im walking down to the center of the L where she was..

EVERY inmate is now looking out thier cell doors... So i pop a blast of the Israle fogger.. This puppy is made for BIG TIME yard control... WOW.. Then the natural air current that occurse in the corner of the building hit me in the face.. WITH half the fore said Israele fogger.. IM ready to drop..But ive got 5 staff, and 80 some odd inmates looking at me.. have no idea how this works cause im really out of it, just trying to act half normal.. The Inmate IMEDIATLY complies with the orders.. I turn and head away.. Didn't say word one.. cause i couldn't even talk.. Back at the office i get a phone call from that yard.. LT.. The inmates are scared to death of you.. I let staff know at briefing the next day.. and after that when ever there was a problem it was "don't make me get the LT and his Fogger".. what ever works huh..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
3 years 41 weeks ago, 7:41 AM

Larry Wagner

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Greg

Yes sir, mind over muscle. Great move Greg. There was a post on here not to long ago where someone told the particulars & percentages on OC. I need to find it a copy that so I half way know what I am shopping for. Do you know if there is an expiration on the spray cans like if the stuff looses it's power or the spray charge looses power???

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 7:44 AM

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LArry

Scroll up this post to Lucky. He has the % up near the top.

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 7:47 AM

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Manu

Yep, that's it, Sorry, coffee hasn't kicked in yet?????

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 7:57 AM

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Good morning Gents. You guys sleep late into the day, hell I have been up since around 0330.

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:00 AM

Larry Wagner

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Mornin Hillbilly

You know how it is, sometimes that lazy virus just gets an extra tight hold, LOL How ya doing this morning??

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:01 AM

Larry Wagner

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Hamp, Morning

Coffee's getting cold brother.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:13 AM

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draggin ass this morning, stayed up to late fondling my new pistol...lol

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:18 AM

Larry Wagner

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Hamp

Keep rubbing it in!!!!! LMAO

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:04 AM

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Mornin Larry

I am not to bad I have a Friday off so I am just hanging out with the family today. I just have to wait for everyone to get out of bed. Figure me and my litttle girl are going to swing by the gun shop and go look at a PT-1911 thanks to Hamp.How are you on this fine morning?

“If ever time should come,when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced Patriots to prevent it's ruin."Samuel Adams
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:11 AM

Larry Wagner

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Not Bad

Figuring about the same as you. pretty good this morning & heading to shop also.
Yea, that cotton pickin Hamp, he needs a new tooth brush....

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:17 AM

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Hamp

Any bluing left on the slide?

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:33 AM

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so there was none to begin with...lol

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:18 AM

HampsterW

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Don't worry guy's, the

Glockaroo posse and Hi-point Hank should be along any minute to berate me for my purchase........What I really need is another one so I can be like Bruce Willis in Last man standing.....bang bang bang!!!

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 41 weeks ago, 1:59 AM

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see my post

on your Taurus 1911 review,didn;t want to disappoint ya....

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:20 AM

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"Double Rig Hamp"

Catchy!!!!!

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:32 AM

Larry Wagner

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HAMP!! STOP IT!!!!!

Get your hands off of that 45 for a while & calm the hell down, before you have a firearm induced erection, lasting more than 4 hours, & then you have to go seek emergency gunsmith help.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:34 AM

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R3

Good morning Adam. How ya feeling bud? better I hope.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:34 AM

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Larry

He is feeling light headed since all of the blood has rushed elswhere. He is unable to think straight right now.

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:46 AM

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No smartass, all of

the cash flowed out of my wallet......lol

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:54 AM

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Hamp

I sure hope you grow to love it. 45 has always been my favorite. There's just something about that big, heavy, slow moving slug & the utter destruction it causes that I like.
I have often been asked the old tired question "why do you carry a big 45" Old tired answer is.
"because they don't make a 55" Good luck & keep me posted.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:36 AM

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LMAO

Right on the money Manu.

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:38 AM

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Gonna go to work today first day open to the public today.

3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:39 AM

Larry Wagner

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Don't forget to smell the #9 patch!!!!!! & have a good day at work.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:50 AM

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Buyers Remorse?

Not having second thoughts are you?

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:52 AM

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told Larry, I need another one for balance....Ha ha ha ha!!

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 41 weeks ago, 8:55 AM

Larry Wagner

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Cant have to many!!

"Double Rig Hamp" Yes sir!!!!!!

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3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:07 AM

HampsterW

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'Double rig Hamp" for the same price as one Kimber...lol

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:10 AM

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Absolutly right

Heck, even the price of a Colt is WAY out there for me now, But I will have my Commander back in my collection before to long!! Hope, Hope, Hope.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:01 AM

manu2014

manu2014's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
926
Join Date:
Feb 2009
Location:
Raleigh
Balance

My son keeps asking me if I have ever jumped through the air sideways with both guns blazing. Might need to get the xd's out and try it. I think he watches too much tv. Where else would he get these strange ideas... When I was young I wanted a double cowboy rig but as I got older and watched Miami Vice I would like a double shoulder holster filled with 45's. I know Sonny's was a single but I like the look.

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:05 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
Manu

Looks cool, but I think I want as many extra mags as I can get. Reloading one under pressure is tough enough for me.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:07 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
He's quiet again.

I think he went back to fondling that 1911.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:11 AM

HampsterW

HampsterW's picture

Rank:
Secretary of State
Points:
7723
Join Date:
Jan 2010
Location:
Cottonwood Heights, Utah, United States

for a suitable holster.........But I have my 1911 with me cause' I be headed to the range after work......Yippeeeeee

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:17 AM

manu2014

manu2014's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
926
Join Date:
Feb 2009
Location:
Raleigh
Larry - reloading

That was something I had never practiced much until that tactical training weekend. It does take practice and when in a stress situation it is even more difficult. I have 3 mag carriers (2 + 1) and am looking at a quad rig for competitions. They stagger the holders so it is still very compact.

Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. Thoreau
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:17 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
Hamp

How ya wanna carry????? I have delt with a ton of holster makers over the years getting people outfitted for ?????

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:19 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
Reloading

is something I work on all the time, Pistol, revolver ( speed loaders & loose round) & shotgun.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:30 AM

Vaquero

Vaquero's picture

Rank:
General of the Army
Points:
5482
Join Date:
Dec 2009
Location:
West Texas
Howdy guys

4 walls, I'm going crazy already!
Looks like I'll be desk jockey for a couple of months.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:35 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
Oh No!!!

I feel for ya brother, I really do.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:38 AM

Vaquero

Vaquero's picture

Rank:
General of the Army
Points:
5482
Join Date:
Dec 2009
Location:
West Texas
Larry

On a Positive note.
I know where the range is, they know me and the loading bench is a whole lot closer now!
Maybe I'll survive.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
3 years 41 weeks ago, 9:40 AM

Larry Wagner

Larry Wagner's picture

Rank:
Lieutenant General
Points:
1860
Join Date:
Nov 2009
Location:
Arizona, United States
Vaq

With a range close by I know you will be OK.

Any day above dirt is a good day!!! My New Motto: Where Do I Sign? (Oh yes I would)
3 years 41 weeks ago, 6:58 PM

runawaygun762

runawaygun762's picture

Rank:
Vice President
Points:
8929
Join Date:
Nov 2008
Location:
Richland, MO, United States

The MK4 (Personal size), MK9 (Bigger ones with handles like Dog the Bounty Hunting Homo Convict uses), then the MK46 foggers (fire extinguisher sized "Black Betty" for the rec yards). I'd love to use a little OC on a couple of my guards who I have caught sleeping. Just a couple little blasts to make examples and I'm pretty sure nobody on my shift would even want to sit down if I'm working.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.

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