Forums / Off Topic / Serious question guys

4 years 26 weeks ago, 4:15 PM

Vaquero

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General of the Army
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Dec 2009
Location:
West Texas
Serious question guys

I am unsure of the proper forum, I am unsure of the morality of this question.
I have never aimed or intentionally pointed a gun towards another human being.
I have been "killing" as long as I can remember, countless bird, quail, rabbit, skunk, snake, more deer than I wish to count. You get the idea.
I have no military or law enforcement experience.
There has to be quite a few guys on here that have fired upon both man and beast.
"Buck fever" is all I can relate to.

The question.
If your ass is on the line and the shit is real, is there anything I can relate to?
Will I have any skills that carry over?

If this is taboo, I'm sorry, I aint one of the club so to speak.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 26 weeks ago, 4:19 PM

samD

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President
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Aug 2008
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Green Valley, Free State of Arizona, United States

he kills me, not much choice. I too have never had to pull the trigger but I have had 2 guns in my face. It is mind set and practice, just keep saying, "What would I do?" and do it either to paper or animals or watermelons.

4 years 26 weeks ago, 4:21 PM

raffycanlas

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Rank:
General
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2636
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Nov 2008
Location:
New England Territory
well...

its either me or him, the way i see things, might as well be him

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
4 years 26 weeks ago, 4:37 PM

Schuyler

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Rank:
General
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3905
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Nov 2008
Location:
Bainbridge Island, Washington, United States

and I even have a lifetime membership for a few courses. One of things they stress in their defensive courses is that You're not out to kill, but out to keep yourself from being killed, and that means being willing to "stop the threat" and defend yourself. Just recently they put out a story about a couple near me who were 'home invaded' by a guy with duct tape, plastic ties, a baseball bat and a firearm. The invader accosted the couple, who were naked in their bedroom. The husband tackled the guy and managed to get a death grip on his wrists and bashed him into the wallboard, which broke.

He told his wife to get the baseball bat and bash this guy in the head. She did. She hit him 20 times and pleaded with him to stop struggling so she wouldn't have to hurt him anymore. Now luckily everyone survived this tale, but the point Frontsight makes is that this couple was lucky. The wife ought to have had the will to bash this guy's head in with one hit. End of story. But she was "afraid" of hurting this home invader who clearly had evil intentions that went beyond just burglary.

What Frontsight says is that you ought to play out the scenarios in your mind well before anything happens so that you don't need to philosophize before you act. I'll give you an example of what happened to me. (Nobody got killed.)

I walk my dog (See 'em there?) every day. He's not aggressive, but other dogs are. A few years ago I was 'attacked' by a much larger dog. Luckily I yelled at him and managed to avoid a bite, but the incident scared the shit out of me. My adrenaline went sky high in 'fight or flight' mode. So I decided to get some pepper gel and be prepared. I went through the attack scenario in my mind over and over and decided if it happened again, I would reel in my dog close to me, confront the attacking dog, and spray him in the face. Easier said than done, right?

Well, inevitably, it happened again. Completely different neighborhood and dog. I had let myself become complacent and out of condition yellow. The street was narrow and, unusually, cars were parked on both sides. I needed to thread myself through the resulting ally. Well, you know what happened. I was unaware an attacking dog was close by because my view was blocked. He came around one of the cars and was very close in an instant.

My adrenaline kicked in so badly that my hands shook, but my scenario went into action on auto-pilot. I pulled out my mace, charged toward the dog, and gave him a good spray right in the face. He backed off and I was able to pull my dog to safety. The owner was upset and said I trespassed on his lawn, which was utter bull shit, so I told him I would have it out in court if he wanted. He didn't.

I hope my little story is useful to you.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
4 years 26 weeks ago, 4:46 PM

HampsterW

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Secretary of State
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Cottonwood Heights, Utah, United States

to do so if the need arises. As sam and raffy have stated it is either him (them) or me. Vaquero, as I see it you have a "foot up" in this regard compared to me as I am not a big hunter, I always figured that I would have an easier time shooting the "bad guy" that was a direct threat to me and my family than I would a deer, rabbit etc. Bud, I ain't PETA and I would not hesitate shooting a Bear, mountain lion, bobcat etc. that was a threat..but thats just me, I would like to think that we would all do the right thing depending on the situation, but the right thing is a "grey area" when seconds count.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 26 weeks ago, 5:24 PM

TLtactical

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Major General
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May 2010
Location:
Gilbert, Arizona, United States

The question.
"If your ass is on the line and the shit is real, is there anything I can relate to?
Will I have any skills that carry over?"

Here is what I will tell you from a combat perspective...

In real life, the first time when you are confronted with your own mortaility vs taking the mortality of another human being you will either panic and fail to act, or panic and act. It usually does not matter your first time how "bad ass" you may be, it is still your first time... The first time you find yourself in a life or death situation your problem may be moral if that is part of your idealogy in that you fear taking a life for whatever reason. More importantly you will face issues of adrenaline panic combined with situational blindless and a few other things that you may not be accustomed to. In our country we are not forced to deal with life and death all that often.

Adrenaline is very much an addiction once you learn it's flavor... Nothing makes you feel more alive than a 40% or more increase in heartrate and that feeling of excitement and power running through your body... It makes everything else seem like... Nothing...

Check out this site: www.ardentiatactical.com

They have some good courses that will help you overcome such obstacles and at the least prepare you better for any bad situation that may come to be... Hopefully you will never have to worry about it...

There is a desert mountain warfare course coming on the 13th of June 2010 in Mesa Arizona about a half an hour from us here...

Best Regards

TL

www.colemantyler.com

Best Regards TL “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” ---Aristotle Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)
4 years 26 weeks ago, 5:42 PM

zx12rmike

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President Pro Temp
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Dec 2008
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commiefornia, United States

The first time is rough, the rest would be a thrill! Send me in!!

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 26 weeks ago, 6:05 PM

Pkato

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General
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Aug 2008
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida, United States
VAQ

I think an important thing to think about is this: You don't want to be in that situation ever, but if you are...you don't want to be forced to think about things like drawing your weapon, getting a good sight picture, breathing, all the shooting skills. You want that to be second nature as much as possible. So just keep training when you can and if you ever had to...you will be ready as much as possible. How you will react, like others have mentioned cannot be determined until the moment of truth. The great thing...you train as much as possible doing something you love, all the while preparing yourself in case you need to defend yourself or your family or whoever...no down side.

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
4 years 26 weeks ago, 6:56 PM

greg az

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Secretary of Homeland Security
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Oct 2009
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New York, NY, Cambodia

Yep there is a correlation between taking life as a hunter and the "possible" taking life in a tactical sittuation.. Heres the some facts on procedures from the Sate of Arizona's Dept. of Correction DART (designated armed response team) protocol.. That was established in 1997.

When ever we introduced weapons on to a yard to put down a disturbance a DART team was assembled (straight out of military squad level tactics) .. I wont bore you guys with all the procedures.. Obviously This seven troop (6 and command) group had a series of interlocking fields of fire, and there was a tremendous amount of training..

The prime fear here was that once you introduce weapons on to a yard.. Guess what.. There's always a chance that they could be taken away.. To counter that no DART teams were allowed on the yard unless covering fire was in place.. This was roof mounted staff armed with the Ruger mini 14..

To answer my pards question.. the qualifications for that position were hand selected even more than the DART team.. (I was a DART Cmdr.) The prime thing we looked at were (obviously distinguished expert in rifle qualification) the staff members ability to PULL the trigger if the DART should be over run... Besides personal interviews.. The number one thing that the State looked at was if that staff had experiance in taking life.. ie hunting..

This came out of the Federal system and in consultation with other States. For obvious legal reasons it was important that all the State programs were in concert on this matter.. So that's the answer pard.. YEP a direct correlation..

The only time i actually had to introduce weapons on a Yard happened before we adapted DART and let me tell ya, that's one stress levil 10 sittuation.. I mentioned this before.. I had to discharge the weapon.. but did not do it at the inmate.. We were using bird shot, and shooting skip shoots (5-10 feet in front of the Inmate) this was changed later but obviously in this case the discharge of the round did the trick..

Be back later my friends.. FOOD TIME..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 26 weeks ago, 5:21 PM

Shakleford

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General
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Feb 2009
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Ft. Worth, Texas, United States

Every time I got to the range I practice drawing and shooting! Even practicing drawing at your house will be a great benifit! Muscle memory is an amazing........Make it second nature and you won't have to think!

"Two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red the white the blue.The other ones got a rattlesnake with a simple statement made, Don’t Tread On Me is what it says"
4 years 26 weeks ago, 5:27 PM

Vaquero

Vaquero's picture

Rank:
General of the Army
Points:
5502
Join Date:
Dec 2009
Location:
West Texas

I saw an interview a while back, he had gotten into quick draw and practiced in front of a full length mirror. Went out and tried it loaded and grazed his calf if I remember right.

But Shak is right, just repeat the motions, driving took a lot of attention and nerves the first time I tried it, now, I drive among the worst ever and can anticipate and react to others without thinking.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 26 weeks ago, 9:12 AM

runawaygun762

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Rank:
Vice President
Points:
8929
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Nov 2008
Location:
Richland, MO, United States

People are "wired" differently. Hunting isn't really the same, because you are intentionally going out to try and kill an animal. Even defending yourself against an animal attack is different, because you pretty well know the animal's intent before it actually attacks, unless you're talking about cougars and other ambush killers. EVERYBODY has the capactiy to kill, but what it takes to do so is different for everybody. We humans also overthink things, which is why so many people fail to recognize obvious pre-attack indicators. Our higher brain tries to analyze, rationalize, and decide morally and socially acceptable courses of action, where animals go immediately into fight or flight.

This is where scenario-based training, or even simple "wargaming" can be a lifesaver. If you can plan ahead for various scenarios, you can take much of the decision making process out of it and shorten your response time a great deal. For a good example of this, look up army infantry battle drills. One of the battle drills we had (at least did when I left the infantry in 2000), was Battle Drill 4, React to Ambush. It's a fairly complex action, but from repetitive drills, the complex action was able to be performed very quickly with only a minimal amount of information required.

Don't worry about the aftermath or the psychological effects of a lethal force encounter too much. You can mitigate it some with training now, but ultimately, how it affects you is something that just makes you who you are.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.

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