Forums / Gun Discussion / Should everyone own a 9mm

5 years 18 weeks ago, 5:53 PM

Shakleford

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I've always shot .40, but not to long ago I had the pleasure of shooting a 9mm. I gotta say....I liked it! I was more accurate with it and had quicker follow up shots. I've always questioned the 9 as a fight stopper, but with all the new ammo out.... I'am second guessing my theories. I'am thinking about a Glock 19....how many carry one? Probably won't carry it, just want to know if I could.

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5 years 18 weeks ago, 6:00 PM

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40

Yeah you should have at least 2 an a .40 an .45. I like the 40 an the 9 mm all the new stuff is great but alot of law enf are movein up to the 40 or 45 especially now with the body armour may not poke a hole in it but it leaves a person on his ass lookin for his next breath.

5 years 18 weeks ago, 6:36 PM

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I got a Glock 19 for this purpose, but now with ammo going up in price I'm not sure it matters as much. My son carries a 10mm Glock. I had shot a military .45 years ago and remembered quite a kick, then my daughter told me she had fired one, "It kicked my butt, Dad," she said. Don't know what kind. So I was a little wary, but a guy at the range let me fire his 1911 (S&W) and I have to say I don't think the kick is any worse than the Glock 19. The gun is a lot heavier and that's probably part of it, but anyway, I'm now lusting after a .45 like that. Course, you gotta change targets more often because it tears 'em up so bad. :-)

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5 years 18 weeks ago, 8:35 PM

mcliberty

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get a 9mm

everyone should have a 9mm glock,s&w,beretta,ect. if ammo gets impossible to find you should be able to find in hard times. plus the it is a u.n/nato round so if they ever turn on us we can use there ammo!

5 years 18 weeks ago, 8:43 PM

mcliberty

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9mm

mcliberty wrote:
everyone should have a 9mm glock,s&w,beretta,ect. if ammo gets impossible to find you should be able to find in hard times. plus the it is a u.n/nato round so if they ever turn on us we can use there ammo!

its better to place one well placed shot,than dump a mag. and hope to hit something.

5 years 18 weeks ago, 8:55 PM

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I cant own one yet but i get to carry my dads 9mm and i love it

5 years 18 weeks ago, 9:15 PM

SUPERFRYE

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9mm

I have shot both, but with the advances in ammo and the cost of 9mm, practice fmg $20 for 100 rnds, thats a lot of range time for nothing, plus it's good enough for the GOV so I'm happy with my 9mm, I've always belived in bullet placement , you might not get a second shot, center mass their going down!!

5 years 18 weeks ago, 9:59 PM

DEMO

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I love 9mm

I buy a 1000 round bundle each year for about 200 bucks. I shoot a AR-15 9mm and Walther P99 9mm at the range all summer. I have control with my rounds. I can put the bullet where I want it.
I have a 45 colt too for hunting but still have my 9mm's for home defense.

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5 years 18 weeks ago, 10:13 PM

raffycanlas

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its a great round for target shooting cuz its cheap, and load it up with 115 +p+ hp for self defense.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 18 weeks ago, 10:58 PM

Lyle Hutchins 1

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9MM

I got 3 9MM's. Issued Glock 19-C duty weapon, my Glock 19-C, and a Taurus Pt-111 Stainless, The duty weapon in also a Glock 19-C. They are very accurate weapons. As for stopping power, we are trained 3 center mass and one to the face. With Remington hollow point plus P ammo. 15x3 round Glock Mags. and 10x3 round for the PT- 111.

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5 years 18 weeks ago, 11:22 PM

raffycanlas

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9mm stopping power

true about the 3 center mass and one to the face, but i think one hollow point round would do the deed, correct me if i am wrong though.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 18 weeks ago, 7:02 PM

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agreed

everyone should own a 9mm. its an all purpose gun, great for target shooting, and as everyone has said with prices the way they are your best value. But saying that ....the .45 is in my opinion the best home defensive hand gun and very fun to shoot.

...check... G-AZ
5 years 17 weeks ago, 12:04 AM

runawaygun762

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9mm is great

as for 40 and 45 leaving a body armor clad person on their butt looking for their next breath, I advise you to watch the videos of Richard Davis of Second Chance Body armor Co shooting himself point blank with a 44 mag. Not exactly on his ass. And mcliberty, the line about the one well placed shot is nice and all, but we're talking about handguns here. That would indicate a close-range fight, which you have obviously never taken part in. It doesn't work that way.

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5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:19 PM

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Bottom line, a accurately placed shot to the center mass (spine) with any caliber will stop the threat, however since most shots aren't accurately placed, a 9mm is not a bad round, but a .40 tops a 9mm, a .45 tops a .40, a .357 magnum tops a .45 (most of the time) and a .44 magnum tops a .357 magnum.

I've seen people shot with 1 9mm round die quickly and others with 8-9 rounds that never die. You'll get as many opinions on the 9mm round as there are people on this site, but it has been around a long time and done a lot of damage.

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5 years 17 weeks ago, 10:10 PM

raffycanlas

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dbphotos

well i mean you shoot a dude with a 9mm on the leg 10 times he wont die on the spot, but you give him a 124 grain +p+ jhp n the stomach and he will die in 3 seconds.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 17 weeks ago, 11:00 PM

dbphotos

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Not necessarily. I've been on scene with a person with 9 center mass shots and he was talking to me and lived. I agree, if the round is properly placed it will do the job. It's also nice to have all the extra rounds available in most 9mm weapons if you're in a serious gun fight.

"God Bless Our Troops, Especially Our Snipers."
5 years 17 weeks ago, 10:11 PM

raffycanlas

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btw shakleford

i carry a glock 19, it doesnt dissapoint, an accurately placed 9mm hollow point will lethally stop someone.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:12 AM

runawaygun762

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People do weird, unexpected things when shot. I know of one anecdote where a police marksman shot a guy in the chest through a windshield with a .308 rifle, the guy got out of the car, shot one cop, and ran a couple blocks before collapsing. On the other hand, i'm sure it's not hard to find stories of guys shot in non lethal areas with small guns who collapse immediately from shock. When training and equipping yourself for a real fight, treat it like you would when being in a fistfight with a big guy. Hit first, and don't stop hitting until he can't hit back. Don't rely on the one punch knockout. Shoot 'em 'till they're no longer a threat.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:28 AM

Anonymous

a 9mm shot

two weeks ago,at my local range(i am the range officer)a guy shot himself with his glock 17.he had his hand over the end of the muzzle preparing to disassemble it.he failed to clear the chamber first,and as glock owners know they have to be in a fired condition to remove the slide.the hollow point bullet went thru the meaty part of his hand south of the pinky then hit him in the side of the abdomen below the ribs and exited his abdomen out his back.the bullet went clear thru both parts of his body without hitting any organs or arteries or veins.basically a tissue wound!the amazing part is that the hollow point failed to open!why?who knows!

5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:35 AM

runawaygun762

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Yet another victim

of the unloaded gun. Those things are dangerous, huh?

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:45 AM

Anonymous

bad part of this story

this guy(a friend)is very well acquanted with guns.he said that he was in a hurry and that he had gotten too comfortable with his weapons!note to others:gun safety always matters!the shitty part was he was teaching his bro in law and sister how to handle a handgun because they were considering buying one for home defense!

5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:14 PM

zx12rmike

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Correct, "Familiarity Breeds Contempt"

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5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:51 AM

runawaygun762

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It seems the ones

with experience are the ones who get complacent. I guess the newbies still consciously think about the inherent risks associated with guns while the old hands just take it for granted.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:57 AM

Anonymous

taking it for granted

i totally agree with you on this!after this happened(i had to give a statement to the police on behalf of the gunclub)and talking with the deputies,we all agreed that this could have been any one of us.the officers(who carry glocks!)said they had done this same thing a million times!i bet they check,check and double check their guns now!even just nowwhile working on a winchester Model 94 i keep checking the chamber.paranoia?maybe,but better safe than sorry!

5 years 17 weeks ago, 4:30 PM

Nitris

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knock down power, a naked perp/thug no problem well suited problem. You need a 357 magnum, 40, 45, or 50.

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 17 weeks ago, 2:44 PM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yr_cM8kvig

Sorry about the link, I couldn't figure out how to embed a video here.

"God Bless Our Troops, Especially Our Snipers."
5 years 17 weeks ago, 7:30 PM

runawaygun762

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Knockdown power

is a myth. People have posted in here and written other stuff about energy transfer and one shot stopping rates and what not. They key with any cartridge at all is placement. That includes rifles and shotguns, but particularly with pistols. 9mm has been killing people for a lot longer than the 40, 10mm, 50 AE, or 500 Mag. People haven't gotten tougher. If you hit someone in the leg or arm with a 45, they will still be a threat much longer than someone hit in the heart, spine, or brain with a 22. I am not advocating 22s as defensive rounds, but I do say use the biggest round you are comfortable with. I like the 9mm because it is much cheaper to practice with and therefore, it is much cheaper to become truly proficient with. A 45 is bigger and gives a better chance of hitting something vital, but it is also nearly twice as expensive as 9mm for practice. Use what you are best with. If you put the bullet(s) in the right spot, any cartridge can have good "knockdown power".

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 17 weeks ago, 5:30 AM

Nitris

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runawaygun762 wrote:
is a myth. People have posted in here and written other stuff about energy transfer and one shot stopping rates and what not. They key with any cartridge at all is placement. That includes rifles and shotguns, but particularly with pistols. 9mm has been killing people for a lot longer than the 40, 10mm, 50 AE, or 500 Mag. People haven't gotten tougher. If you hit someone in the leg or arm with a 45, they will still be a threat much longer than someone hit in the heart, spine, or brain with a 22. I am not advocating 22s as defensive rounds, but I do say use the biggest round you are comfortable with. I like the 9mm because it is much cheaper to practice with and therefore, it is much cheaper to become truly proficient with. A 45 is bigger and gives a better chance of hitting something vital, but it is also nearly twice as expensive as 9mm for practice. Use what you are best with. If you put the bullet(s) in the right spot, any cartridge can have good "knockdown power".

Runaway I do agree with part of your statement: however many police deprtments are switching to 40 and or 45 because 9mm in hollow point or FMJ lacks the ablitiy to tak the perp down as desired...........I could go on and on with fact sheets and so forth but I'm tired right now.

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 17 weeks ago, 7:35 PM

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runawaygun762

"Amen".

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 17 weeks ago, 10:45 PM

Anonymous

im not a 9 iron man myself. Perfer magnums or powerful .45 LC. Again no dis respect intended.

5 years 17 weeks ago, 10:55 PM

DEMO

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45 colt...Snake

I bought a Ruger blackhawk in 45 colt. Some of the Corbon loads are hotter than 44 mag and heavier. What do you think about taking a deer or bear with it.
I love the gun, plus it came with a 45 acp cylinder

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5 years 17 weeks ago, 11:17 PM

Anonymous

Demo

.45 Lc yes it will work on a deer. I have done it myself at about 25 30 yards. 2 shots one in neck other in shoulder.didnt run to far and bled all the way. Mine is an original SAA

5 years 17 weeks ago, 5:53 AM

runawaygun762

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Nitris

I would be interested in seeing stats for police departments as far as where their rounds hit. I'm willing to bet in the majority of the instances where rapid incapacitiation did not happen the suspects were not struck in the vitals. Look, a 100 pound deer struck through both lungs with a .30-06 can still run for quite a ways before collapsing. And for a police department to go to a bigger, less user-friendly round is ridiculous as the majority of cops out there don't practice regularly. I will say that given a hit in the same spot, a 45 is more effective than a 40, which is is more effective than a 9mm, which is more effective than a 22, and so on. I have come to the conclusion that decision makers for police and military units are much more prone to coming up with a technological answer for a training or performance problem. "Our officers aren't killing the suspects quickly enough? Let's give 'em bigger guns". When the answer should be "Let's send our officers over to Lou Chiodo in the CHP so we can go from a 20-something percent hit rate to nearly 90 percent, just like the CHP did". Imagine that; a training solution to a training deficiency. That would pretty much nulify the caliber conversation.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:16 PM

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Runawaygun762

runawaygun762 wrote:
I would be interested in seeing stats for police departments as far as where their rounds hit. I'm willing to bet in the majority of the instances where rapid incapacitiation did not happen the suspects were not struck in the vitals. Look, a 100 pound deer struck through both lungs with a .30-06 can still run for quite a ways before collapsing. And for a police department to go to a bigger, less user-friendly round is ridiculous as the majority of cops out there don't practice regularly. I will say that given a hit in the same spot, a 45 is more effective than a 40, which is is more effective than a 9mm, which is more effective than a 22, and so on. I have come to the conclusion that decision makers for police and military units are much more prone to coming up with a technological answer for a training or performance problem. "Our officers aren't killing the suspects quickly enough? Let's give 'em bigger guns". When the answer should be "Let's send our officers over to Lou Chiodo in the CHP so we can go from a 20-something percent hit rate to nearly 90 percent, just like the CHP did". Imagine that; a training solution to a training deficiency. That would pretty much nulify the caliber conversation.

As a member of the military who has seen first hand this problem......AMEN. Lets fix the problem with training and not tech. Tech can fail when need most, and training will get you through.

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
5 years 17 weeks ago, 6:18 AM

Nitris

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To start with my statement was knock down power not kill. If I want to kill I couls use a 22lr. 9mm lack knock down power not kill ability. I own several 9mm and love them. Even carry in my car for protection.

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 17 weeks ago, 7:31 PM

raffycanlas

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9mm

doesnt matter what bullet i guess, if u miss the vitals, u dont knock them down, and with 2-3 shots of a 9mm in the chest, you oughta hit something. and to be honest i dont know about guns as much as half the people here, but if im carrying my g19 loaded with +p+ hp's, im gonna be confident i will stop a perp/animal. and if the 9mm is good enough for the military and the nypd, its sure as hell good enough for me.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:09 PM

runawaygun762

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No pistol in existence will knock a man down. There are some smart people here, and I could find that physics law that says for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, or whatever if I looked around. This applies to shooting. Any bullet capable of physically knocking a man down would have recoil powerful enough to do the same to the shooter, minus gun weight and recoil dampening and whatnot. Knockdown power refers to the speed of incapacitation caused by a given round, not by the ability to physically move someone.

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5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:21 PM

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knockdown power

isrealies shoot until,target goes down,reload. thats knockdown power.

5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:26 PM

runawaygun762

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No, mcliberty

that's shooting until the bad guy is incapacitated, allowing them to fall down. That's gravity at work.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 17 weeks ago, 9:30 PM

mcliberty

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I KNOW

BUT YOU HAVE TO AGREE THE WHERE KNOCKED DOWN . HA!HA!

5 years 17 weeks ago, 4:13 AM

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9mm

I still agree with Runawaygun762 (use the biggest caliber you are comfortable with).
I know I can shoot a Glock19 "out of the box" better than other calibers I have. But don't own one. Go figure. I switched to a .40 S&W in 1990. So I
am totally comfortable w/that. A lot of it (I believe) is the platform that the round is launched from. Then you have the mass/weight/energy, argument.
+ we add the newer ammunition component. This could go on forever. It's great.

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 16 weeks ago, 7:18 AM

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i think a 45 magnum would give you a good head start towards the ground

5 years 16 weeks ago, 8:16 PM

runawaygun762

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A 22lr in the cerebral cortex will drop you much faster than a 12 gauge in the gut. No, I am not saying we should trade our 870s for 10/22s, but I am illuminating the point. With handguns, the key is where the round goes. A 308 narrowly missing the liver will still damage the liver. The vast majority of defensive rounds will not damage the liver unless it hits it directly.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 16 weeks ago, 7:18 PM

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runawaygun762 re 9mm

You got it right, bullet placement is everything as "we" were trained,9MM rocks "THAT"S IT " !!!!

5 years 16 weeks ago, 7:58 PM

Anonymous

.45 ACP .45 LC are the best

5 years 16 weeks ago, 10:56 PM

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9mm is second best?

well i dunno about that, see 45 acp leaves bigger holes, 40 cal is a mix between a 9mm and 45 acp, 357 sig and mag are deep hole punchers, so all in all, bullets have different styles, i love the 45 acp for self defense, but id rather have 15 shots of the 9mm than 8 of the 45.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 16 weeks ago, 9:55 AM

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This is knock down power from a pistol.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1234318416/Armed_Suspect_Taken_Down_Wi...

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 16 weeks ago, 10:15 AM

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Most of us agreed this video is a HOAX.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 16 weeks ago, 12:04 PM

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damn right!!!!

I think?

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 11:35 PM

runawaygun762

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9mm vs all others

I do not believe the 9mm is a better or more effective round than the 40 or 45. If I could find a 16 inch naval gun that was easily concealed, easily controlled in rapid strings of fire with inexpensive practice ammo, I would carry one of those. The amount of recoil generated by a 9mm is less than that of a 40, 45ACP, 45 LC (don't feel left out, Snake), 10mm, and so on up the scale in a given platform. You can train to control recoil and stack rounds right on top of each other at 8 yds while running with a 45 with the proper training, equipment, and practice. However, since I am not an "operator" and I have to buy my own ammo, the 9mm is the best choice for me. I may move up to a 45 some day, but only after I've found a reliable, comfortable weapon that I feel confident will serve me as well as the Glock 19/26. I doubt it'll ever happen, though.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:05 AM

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runawaygun

very good point man, my glock 19 carries 15, when im out or just waiting in my bedroom, and since the 40 and 45 carries only about 7-13, its a very very very slim chance i would have to unload 15 bullets on a perp, so with that being said, bullet for bullet, the 40 and 45 are more powerful than the 9mm, but it doesnt mean the 9mm lacks stopping power, in my opinion, stopping power is hitting somebody in their vitals thatll cause shock or immediate blood loss for them to go down, its easier to achieve that with the fatter 45 or the faster 357 sig, but a 9mm will still do the job...ask the military, border patrol, and secret service. a 9mm may be small compared to a 45, but then again, a pitbull is small compared to most dogs...

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 15 weeks ago, 12:05 PM

Ebear

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ok, but

since I've been lookin into reloading myself, Im sticking with the 9. But for all of you guys who will buy your ammo. I gotta suggest you go with the .40 or .45. You just can't find 9mm ammo anywhere cheap anymore. The demand is so strong most of your big dealers are out of stock.Sure you can go to the range and buy some , but they're at least 10.00 more a box.But I did notice that you can get the.40 and .45 anywhere and at a reasonable price.So thats why im allredy buying my reloading equipment.Ilove you all, but soon I will look down on you like peasants.

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 12:30 PM

Reaper308

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9mm

I own 9mm's and love shooting them. I also love .45acp.... but my carry gun and nightstand gun are both .40S&W. I don't think the recoil is bad at all and think its a good combination of mag cap and stopping power. 9mm will definately do the job with some well placed shots and good JHP's but I personally prefer .40 for two legged threats. (I'm also a fan of .357 sig, those rounds are pretty nasty)

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
5 years 15 weeks ago, 9:55 PM

Scarecrow

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Caliber Debate

Most civilian fire fights are within 7 to 10 yards. The spray & pray method is more or less left to luck. The calmer front sight to target alignment will work better on average. I was trained to double tap, one to center mass and one to the head. Repeat if the threat is still standing. These shots are to be made from a practiced position of making your body a smaller target and a comfortable pistol shooting stance. So, when Snoop Puppy Busta Rhymes is holding his pistol sideways and jerking the trigger like all the others in the hood, you follow your training and practice of stance and an aimed shot will make him have a bad day. Quality of shots are always better than quantity of shots. The caliber should be what ever you can shoot your best with (without going to rim fire) and putting more holes in the 5X or your live target. Almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. The caliber debate from .32 to .50 could bounce around many times and if researched there will be examples found of people that's been shot center mass by every caliber mentioned and have lived. Does that make a caliber useless because it did so? Short of taking an RPG or an MX missile to the bread basket, you won't find knocking people out of their shoes type of knock down from any small arms caliber. The 9MM is a very workable round when applied correctly. These are just my experiences and opinions on the subject.

I will not be wronged and I will not have hands laid up on me. John Wayne in the Shootest. Your a Daisy if you do. Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday.
5 years 15 weeks ago, 6:12 PM

ronin1604

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I carried a 9mm for about 2 years and had reacently puchased a XD9 as a new carry piece......Then I had to use it. I've used guns most my life and even was an instructor in advance tactics for uncle sam, so I can hit what I aim for. I had a person attack my wife and I in my home, and I shot him twice with a 9mm JHP +p+ rounds. The intruder was stopped, but after all the excitement had died down, i noticed two holes in the wall behind him......and into the next room .......and into the room behind that. No one was hurt, but with my daughter and grandson living with me, i put the nines away. Over penetration is a waste of energy and dangerous to innocent bystanders.

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:00 PM

Ebear

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now

If im not mistaken, Is'nt there a bullet made for home defense that will not go through a wall after initial impact?

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:04 PM

samD

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ebear

You are so derecho or is it dereche? They are called frangibles and won't hardly penetrate sheet rock, will F up a human or animal though. But I like to keep my old neighbors moving around, it is good for their circulation.

5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:08 PM

Ebear

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frangibles

sounds like kiddie vitamins

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:12 PM

samD

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I like that in a person.

5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:15 PM

Ebear

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samd

most of the things you like in a person are either illegal or no longer work!!!lolololol

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:17 PM

samD

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anymore. Old age is NOT for sissys. LOL

5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:20 PM

Ebear

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samd

im not to far behind ya.....lotta miles on this bod!!!!!!

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:21 PM

samD

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the other day.
One say's to the other" You know what the best thing is to come out of a man's penis?"
LOL2 No Maude what?
Maude say's "The wrinkles" LOL

5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:23 PM

Ebear

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and then

you had a threesome!!!! allright Sam the Man!!!!!!!

...check... G-AZ
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:00 PM

Scarecrow

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Over Penetration

ronin, +P+ ammo is for engaging targets that may be in a vehicle or behind some kind of cover outside of a home. They are designed for more penetration. The +P+ is higher pressure = a higher velocity. The bullets went through the perp too fast to expand. Believe it or not a slower HP bullet will expand the best on a human. Try some ballistics jell with 9MM +P+ HP ammo vs 9MM standard velocity 147 grn. hydro shock, saber, or any other standard velocity 147 grn. HP ammo. You will see a difference in penetration and expansion of the two. Lots of folks buy into to the +P and +P+ = knock down power. It doesn't work that way. I personally have seen human bodies shot with .357 Magnum HP caliber rounds and standard .38 Special HP rounds. The .38 Special HP caliber rounds made a bigger wound channel than the .357 Magnum did. The .357 Magnum HP rounds were just starting to expand when they were exiting the body, where the .38 Special HP rounds began expanding about half way into the body. If I could make a suggestion for a home defense weapon if your worried about over penetration, a pump/semi-auto shotgun loaded with #8 or #9 shot would cut down on the over penetration into other rooms of the house, while making a nice size hole in the human body at 15 yards or less. You could use a heavy bullet, like the 147 grn, in a standard 9MM load in your 9MM pistol to stop some of the over penetration but, your going to have penetration through walls with any center fire handgun/rifle regardless of caliber because walls are made of sheet rock or paneling. Those two things can be penetrated with a BB gun. In reality +P and +P+ ammo is really not designed or intended for home defense. It's more for duty services for police, armed security guards, and ect.

I will not be wronged and I will not have hands laid up on me. John Wayne in the Shootest. Your a Daisy if you do. Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday.
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:11 PM

ronin1604

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over penetration

Scarecrow- I agree with everything you said 100%. The problem is with me. I'm old school in the sense that I don't use one round for the range, one round for personal defense or duty and another for home defense. I practice and carry the same round everytime, all the time. +p+ rounds are higher velocity, true, but I think you will agree that the slowest 9mm round is still faster then say the fastest 45acp. The 9mm is an effective round, but I feel better carring my .45's with 230 JHP. the slower speed combined with the heavier round seems to be a saffer option, and I prctice enough that I'm not concerned with follow on shots or shot placement.

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
5 years 15 weeks ago, 7:32 PM

Scarecrow

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to ronin

By all means yes, if you are more accurate and comfortable with your .45ACP carry it. That could mean the difference in life and death to someone. When I was on duty I carried my rounds stacked HP then FMJ in my magazines. I carried them staggered like that because it was unknown what kind of situation I would be involved in with a fire fight. A fire fight out in the open requires a different bullet than say a fire fight from car to car. I tried to prepare for both.

I will not be wronged and I will not have hands laid up on me. John Wayne in the Shootest. Your a Daisy if you do. Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday.
5 years 14 weeks ago, 12:49 AM

runawaygun762

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Slower HP have less reliable expansion, which is why nearly every gun "expert" agrees 147 gr 9mm JHP are best suited for subguns, as they don't get the velocity needed to upset and expand from a handgun length barrel. There is no such thing as going "too fast" to expand for a pistol round. The 9mm round is a very deep penetrating round and it is a very good possibility that a +P+ round has enough velocity to expand and continue penetrating through a body. There is also a fairly common occurence of the cavity of HP bullets being plugged with fabric, keeping the fluid pressure from building and causing reliable expansion. For defensive use, the frangible 9mm round is a wonderful round for terminal ballistics, but both brands I have used left a lot to be desired as far as accuracy went. I do agree with using a long gun as a home defense gun, but don't discount the idea of a .223 rifle. The 55 gr Hornady V-max and the 55 gr Extreme Shock frangible both showed insane terminal ballistics and very little penetration.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 12 weeks ago, 8:34 PM

bobby glock

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9mm

i have a glock 19 with over 50,000 rounds though it and its still going strong but i carry glock 27 that i really like

5 years 12 weeks ago, 10:10 PM

ronin1604

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I'm fresh out of ballistics gel, is there a suitable test media, besides sides of beef and vagrants, to test on?

__________________ "...He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." - Jesus, Luke 22:36
5 years 12 weeks ago, 10:33 PM

Ironkoji

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Hey Runawaygun762

I agree with just about everything you have said. BTW that formula you are looking for is Newton's Third Law of Motion. F=MA or Force = mass times acceleration. Or stated as you did, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The problem in just one part of your argument, which is mostly all correct otherwise, is the acceleration part. The round is accelerating while you are standing still. I have seen men knocked down from the impact of a single round, at very close range. I have also seen a man die almost instantly from a single round to the thigh. A thigh shot on a human is not a bad idea. All you have to do is place the round on the upper inside part of the thigh and you'll cut the femoral artery. Someone hit like this will bleed out in 10 to 20 seconds. They will also be instantly incapacitated. You won't take a step and you're likely to only get just one more breath if you are shot in the femoral artery with a 9mm, and as you say 9mms are cheap and available. There is also the idea of why use a hydrogen bomb when a hand grenade will do? A 9mm can easy make you just as dead with one round as any other caliber round. But I also agree with you because I spent many years of my career working with the Israel Air Wing Service and their most very deadly Air Wing Commandos. These guys have a mindset that they got lots of bullets and emptying a mag into one guy to make sure he's dead is better than taking a chance that he's not. The Filipinos have a different idea. They follow the old sniper motto of one shot one kill. Placement of the round is everything, but a good thigh shot will make a person just as dead as a whole mag emptied into center mass. For two years in the Philipines I used a 9mm Beretta Cx4 carbine chambered with the IMI Israeli 9mm x 21mm magnum parabellum. It's a very powerful and deadly weapon for up close and personal "hugging" style combat where you have to do most of your fighting at ranges of less than 50 meters.

5 years 12 weeks ago, 10:36 PM

joeybaggadonuts

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doesn't everyone?

doesn't everyone? my 64 year old mother owns one, my 10 year old can't wait until I die to get mine! Sick, huh?
9mm is very useful round; target, self defense, bringing to gun fights, picking locks, etc.
You can even use it to pistol whip someone who desperately needs it and save a few rounds at the same time.

I also believe in bullet placement, with ammo being very scarce and hard to get lately, be accurate and be safe.

Gun Control= the theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.
5 years 12 weeks ago, 5:14 AM

charley9toe

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9MM

Yeh, I got one somewhere in that safe.

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 12 weeks ago, 10:54 AM

skink5150

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I like my nines

I purchased a Glock 26 for CC , and not a .40 , because I already own a S&W 5906 and wanted to simplify ammo requirements .

5 years 11 weeks ago, 9:11 PM

runawaygun762

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It is a bad thing to use terms of absolutes when discussing what will happen when people are shot. It is nice to be able to say someone will always go down and stay down when hit with half a dozen 7.62 rounds, but the SLAP rounds used by TF Ranger in Somalia would put Sammies down only to have them get up and run off on several occasions. Trying to determine what caliber or bullet type to use based strictly on the mechanical merits is not intelligent. It is nice to say you will be immediately incapacitated if hit in the femoral artery, but if a heart shot or hit in the liver will not guarantee an immediate incapacitation, trying to say it will happen with an artery is flawed logic. You want a good target to shoot at? Shoot at the center mass (not center of mass) of whatever the bad guy exposes. Multiple hits in the brain will yield the best results, followed by a single hit to the brain, followed by multiple hits to the upper spine, followed by a single hit to the upper spine followed by multiple hits to the high chest followed by everything else. Hit 'em in the best spot you can, as many times as you can, with the biggest bullet you can. The original question of whether everyone should own a 9mm, the answer is yes. Everyone should own two of every gun, ideally. That was dumb. Sorry, I couldn't stay consistently intelligent. 9mm is a very good round when loaded with modern defensive rounds. It is not as good, hit for hit as the .40, .45, 10mm, .45 LC (SNAKE) or .357 mag. But it is still widely available, sort of, and gives lots of chances to miss the heart and brain in a given platform.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.

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