Forums / Political & Legal / So What Do We Want?

5 years 23 weeks ago, 1:17 PM

runawaygun762

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So What Do We Want?

We have members here from all over the country, many different states, and this seems like a perfect place for a true grassroots movement to begin. Here is a question for you all; What kind of legislation would be good to pressure our elected representatives for? What kind, if any, of "Guns Lot Project" would be good for each of us to contact our local reps about? samD posts things by the AZ CDL, others post things about Montana or Oklahoma, and so on, but what if we could come up with a piece of legislation that every state should consider? Hopefully this is a clear enough thought, as those are slipping from my head bit by bit. I like Montana's gun and supressor bill and it seems like a fairly easy sell in these times of media coverage of what individual governors are doing in reference to the Fed's stipulations on the stimulus package. What other ideas are there? EBEAR, MY ASS ON THE FRONT OF THE STATE CAPITOL BUILDING IS NOT A VALID CHOICE!!!

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 1:29 PM

samD

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Runaway

The only way we can control these political weenies is with a strict two (2) term limit for any office and no pensions. No former politician may lobby for anything, period.

5 years 23 weeks ago, 1:57 PM

Gunnin88

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Yes

TERM LIMITS!!!!!!!

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 23 weeks ago, 2:01 PM

runawaygun762

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I like that, samD

I agree with it completely, although I doubt these elected idiots will vote themselves out of office. I really think the problem is lack of concern on the part of voters, and a big part of that is actually too much information available. It sounds dumb, but hear me (or actually, read me) out here; You post so many news clippings, covering such a wide area in this country, that I don't even fully read many of them. That's no disrespect to you, but I only read the ones that really catch my attention, even though the vast majority contain news items that have the potential to directly affect me. I think people in America have actually become desensitized to information. It's the only thing that can explain the amount of press Caylee(?) Anthony got. Kids go missing and end up raped, mutilated, and killed. It's going to happen in a country of over 300 million. So why her? It gave people something else to think about. With the proliferation of the internet, anyone can be an activist, and I think people notice less. My words right now have the potential to reach millions of people and I am no more qualified to talk about what laws should pass than the next guy. I was listening to the radio today and someone quoted someone else as saying the democratic party wants to bring about more government and therefore they have an advantage over the republicans because the dems have a untiy of purpose. This is profound. This is absolutley true. I believe the majority of people in this country are conservatives who haven't been educated yet. Liberals, by and large, rely on emotion to make their points, and it works for them. I can guarantee you, if you take a suburban soccer mom who hates the idea of guns in her house, and educate her using logic, hard numbers (as opposed to statistics. Those are bad), and hands-on training, 90 percent of the time, she will come over to our side. But you show her a Fox news program with the same information, and she won't be impressed. It's because of the massive amount of information available to her on TV and the internet. I believe we freedom-lovers, whether we consider ourselves conservatives, liberals, or moderates, need to have a untiy of purpose. I believe gun rights can and should be that purpose. The enemy has shown they are weak on this subject. We are strong. We have facts and real common sense on our side. We can have an emotional impact if we desire, also. The emotional effect of a mother having to identify the body of her daughter who was raped and killed by an intruder because the girl didn't have the means to defend herself at home can be quite powerful. We need to learn to play on people's emotions as well as logic. Watch the video of Suzanna Huff (sp) testifying before congress again, imagine you dining out with your loved ones and the same thing happening to you and see if it doesn't affect you. Now do what every one of us has done at some point, and imagine the same thing, only in your scenario, you've got a weapon on you. These are the things we need to impart to the uneducated or anti-gun people around us who will actually listen. As far as who to talk to, young women, and mothers should be our highest priorities. Mothers are the ones who have the biggest impact on a child's moral development, and those are the ones most likely to be afraid of guns, even though those are the ones who gain the most benefit from the equalizing power of them. I believe I went off subject, but I went with what the spirit of the lord guided me to do. Just kidding. The spirit of the lord is guiding me to go get some Cheetos and Mt Dew. Yum.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 2:02 PM

runawaygun762

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Holy crap

runawaygun is back with his book-long posts. Sorry.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 2:10 PM

Schuyler

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Maybe they should pay us by the word.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 2:25 PM

runawaygun762

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Where's my money? I really think there ought to be an area right under our screen names that says retired, uneployed, or has a job, so people can see what a loser I am. samD's 10,000+ points will make sense because his says retired, so he has nothing else to do. My 2,800 or so will mark me as a loser as I work and have these points built up. Of course, most of mine have been accumulated while at work, so maybe people will think I'm cool for having such a sham job that i can post online instead of really working. I'm going to shut up now, because this was clearly a comment born of sheer boredom.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 2:34 PM

Gunnin88

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Runaway

I reseamble that remark. I don't know if I have ever posted from home...lol

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 23 weeks ago, 3:22 PM

Schuyler

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but I'm not sure that would work well, at least for short amounts of time. Two terms for a representative for a total of 4 years is not enough to develop any expertise.

For several years I was heavily involved in telecommunications both as a consumer and a businessman. I ran one of the largest ISPs in the state at one time and by virtue of that profile I was appointed by the Governor to a 'public advisory committee to the Public Counsel for the State Public Utilities Commission' (whew!) where I served for about ten years. We were tasked with advising Public Counsel lawyers on what we thought of rate-paying and other issues brought before the committee. This included rate cases, of course, but ran the gamut of public policy issues not only for telecommunications, but for any field covered by the committee: electricity and gas, all manner of utility districts from water to garbage, movers, etc. I was on our State Capitol Hill many times, made speeches before the Utilites Commission, etc. It was quite a ride. They would convene our committee every quarter for information sessions where we had the advantage of hearing speakers on many different topics, including many of our state legislators, especially those who chaired various committees on these issues.

I came away from that decade with a much fuller appreciation of what it takes to learn the intricacies of these public-policy issues. A legislator is just about worthless his first two years because he is in learn-mode. It takes a long time to learn and appreciate some of these complex issues.

I would support term limits, but more in the lne of 10 years for representatives and two terms for Senators. That way they could at least contribute meaningfully to the issues, but could not make a career of it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 3:45 PM

Gunnin88

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Good

I don't want experts!! I want people whom represent the beliefs and opinions of the people whom voted for them. I am no expert and would not hesitate to be an elected official on a state level. I would listen to MY people the same people whom voted me in and I would try to do whatever the majority of those people saw fit.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:03 PM

Schuyler

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that talks about this. The gist of it, extensively paraphrased, is that you don't elect a representative simply to parrot your own views, but because he or she has the insight to make intelligent decisions. I don't really want a representative to simply repeat verbatim what the masses say they want. That's what has gotten us into trouble already. Democracy is Mob Rule. As soon as the majority figures out it can vote itself the wealth of the minority, that's what they'll do. Right now the Democrats control everything. If we take the position that they must vote exactly the way the people who voted them into office want them to vote, then we're lost. After all, the majority voted Obama in. It wasn't a huge majority, but it was still a majority.

My fervent hope is that there are at least some Democrats who will resist turning us into a socialist state, who will resist draconian gun laws, and who will resist the far leftist agenda.

I remember long ago when a guy named Carswell was nominated for a Supreme Court post. In examining his record it was discovered he was a pretty mediocre judge with no stellar accomplishment at all. (That's not unusual.) But during the nomination process a Senator from Nebraska said that was Ok by him because the Supreme Court needed representatives from mediocre people, too. Fortunately his line of thinking was not preferred. Carswell withdrew and was later arrsted on morals charges for one of those 'men in a restroom' issues.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:17 PM

runawaygun762

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are lawyers, but I do wish our laws were written plainly enough that one doesn't need to have all that training to understand them. I agree that elected officials should, if not be experts, at least be intelligent enough to find experts and listen to them. They are elected to represent their constituents, but it is impossible to get a large group of people to agree on any one subject, so the representatives should be able to figure out what is best for the people. I will run for state office at minimum after I retire from the army, if only to do what I think is right for society. I will have no problem returning to the private sector and living with the results of my decisions. Of course, because of that and my distrust of government, I can't see being a successful candidate. Oh well, guess I'll have to be content with talking shit about them.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:17 PM

Schuyler

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an old one by the Herotage Foundation, a very conservative group. It was obviously scanned and not edited, so there are numerous errors, but anyway: http://www.heritage.org/research/governmentreform/hl332.cfm There it is. One quote from it, by James Madison. He was writing wth the psedonym 'Publius' in the Federalist Papers, which were a series of articles explaining the US Constitution to the public:

From the aricle: "For Publius, representation has to do with improving upon public opinion rather than catering to it. As he states it, "to refine and enlarge the republic views by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interests of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial- considerations. When representation takes place in a large republic, it becomes possible that "the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people,- will, be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves..."

hat's not the quote I was thinking aboit above, but it provides the same point of view. If you are willing to slog through the entiore 'Federalist Papers,' (it's slow going) it provides a wealth of information on what our Founding Father's thoughts and intents were on founding this Nation.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:18 PM

Gunnin88

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I see your point

I just don't agree. ;) nothing worse than a professional politician IMHO.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:28 PM

Schuyler

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I do want politicians who have some knowledge about what they are voting for and understand the implications of the laws they are making. It takes some time to develop that expertise. Having said that, I don't want lifetime politicians. One of my least favorite life-long politicians who has devolved into pandering to special interests and pork: Norm Dicks, your representative. If you've got a project, go to Norm. He'll get you some pork. He's always re-elected with very high margins. He doesn't even campaign any more. He does what people want him to do: Gets them some pork. And that's just about it. But as far as a principled leader? He's a party-line man all the way.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:32 PM

runawaygun762

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I don't want leaders

That is one thing I am sick and tired of seeing; campaigns with a candidates leadership advertised. Unless I am voting for a governor or president, I don't give a rat's ass about your leadership abilities. They aren't running to be my leader, they're running to be my representative. This is definitely going to be something I will highlight if I ever do run for office. But then if another candidate calls me on it, I have led soldiers under fire, so I think I can handle that challenge. HAH HAH HAH, FUCK 'EM ALL!!! Um, okay then.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:41 PM

Gunnin88

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But as runaway said, I am not voting for a leader, I am voting for a represenative. Thats what I want them to do, represent.
I guess more imprtant that term limits would be allowing us the people to read and vote on every bill via the internet, that would make me happy. Problem is there are too many people too stupid or to lazy to do so....sooo

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:37 PM

clintlebo

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Gunnin88

If I read you right, and I think I did, what you are proposing in this post is changing from a Republic to a Democracy.

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:44 PM

Schuyler

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so what shall they do? Follow whatever Pelosi says they should do meekly? What I want is for the more conservative Democrats (if there are any) to stand up as a group and declare they are NOT going to follow the party-line and turn this country socialist and are instead going to resist the leftist juggernaut and vote with Republicans to stop this nonsense. It takess leadership and guts to do this.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 4:57 PM

runawaygun762

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That is not leadership

and their job does not require it. Their job is to vote on issues which affect their constituency first, and nation second. Standing up to Pelosi does not take leadership or guts, it takes discipline. Discipline is doing what is right no matter what. For a representative to vote aganst something they feel is in the best interest of their constituency and nation to stay with party lines is a violation of their oath. To vote for the above "something" is doing their job. Having your name as an author of a bill is not leadership, either. Being the Speaker of the House is not leadership position any more than Reaper308's or samD's title in here is a leadership position. I don't mind if my representatives have leadership experience or ability, but I also don't believe it's a necessary attribute for that job.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:01 PM

runawaygun762

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Gunnin

Another problem with that idea is the number of bills under consideration. I think there ought to be a max number of bills considered per session, to allow the congresspeople to completely read them. Some may say that would slow government down and I say "Fuckin-a". I'm also a huge fan of the line-item veto and think it would stop a lot of politicking and back-door dealing, but I'm sure those more intelligent than I can find many flaws and dangers in that concept.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:27 PM

Schuyler

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Now you have legislators whose job is to parrot what you want and do what you say only. Time for a Reality Check:

The Senate: 57 Democrats, 40 Republicans, 2 Independent, 1 vacant
The House: 256 Democrats, 178 Republicans
The President: Democrat
The Vice President: Democrat
The Cabinet: Largely Democrat (exception: Defense)

All these people who were not appointees won the majority in their districts. the President won both the Popular Vote and the Electoral Vote.

And you don't want 'leadership' in your representatives. Ok, then I believe you have nothing. You may as well hang in the towel. I don't happen to agree with your definitions of leadership nor do I wish my representatives to be brain-dead parrots for whatever you want. I don't want 'majority rule.' We've got that already. the average person is stupid, and half of them are more stupid than that.

If that's what you want, the representaives should simply follow what those who elected them want--and it wasn't you. The opposition won and by your definitions the legislators should simply vote their way.

It's over. And you lose.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:34 PM

runawaygun762

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Look at my posts above

I did not say I want them to parrot anything. In fact, I agreed with you that they should make their own decisions based on what they think is best for their constituency first, and nation second. They are not in leadership positions, and I don't want them to advertise this trait unless they are running for tha type of office. If you read my comment titled "I understand why most congressment", you will see that. I think you're mistaking me for gunnin on this. Leaders, no. Make the best decisions for their people given the information they have at the time, yes.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:37 PM

runawaygun762

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As for definitions

I never gave a definition of leadership, but being a career soldier, mine would have to go along the lines of "supervising one's subordinates to accomplish the mission by providing purpose, direction, and motivation". By my definition, elected representatives are not in leadership positions.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:44 PM

charley9toe

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schuyler

Well said, in all. I certainly agree w/term limits as you described. Makes sense.
I have read the Federalist papers and continue to refer to them. When I can find my frayed paperback. Regarding a Representative Officials conveyance of need from constituents to the governing body(ie, the halls of Congress). I believe you must read between the lines. The public opinion in anyones district although not disparate, is rarely overwhelming. I don't believe a representative should be an advocate but make the decisions that are better for their constituency (that requires a decision maker). That is where I feel we have gone astray in elected government. Party affiliations appear to be the persuading motivation of the current "Progressives". I won't go on except to say, "In my personal opinion, few elected officials know a F---ing thing about the U.S. Constitution (or care less)". In an additional note the populace isn't hammering on the doors of their Representative. Do they not care or are they just bewildered ??

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 5:55 PM

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charley

There are some of us that get Christmas cards from our representatives ;)
but not many. Please take into account the number of voters registered by acorn, you should be able to answer your bewildered question on your own...lol

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 6:14 PM

charley9toe

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I think Acorn is a fraud ? Not for a second do I believe they have "actually registered" the quantity they report. Acorn is establishing itself as "the" representative in a new social welfare system. I thought we already had that.
Isn't, that why my pay check looks like it's been whacked on with a Sumarai sword. Now $Bs for ACORN. OK, I don't like it!! Clint, I'm glad U woke me up.

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 6:22 PM

clintlebo

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I am glad i could ring the bell...
although I still don't know what i did!!!

lol

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 6:31 PM

Schuyler

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most people don't know, don't care, and just are trying to live their lives. They've got an opinion or two which they express once in awhile, largely based on mis-information. I've grown increasingly pessimistic about the quality of our citizens, including where they think this country should go and the amount of critical thinking they apply. You are, I think, the only other person I've met who has actually read the Federalist Papers. Congatulations. I found it very hard going with the language structure being so different than what we are used to do. It's much more erudite than the kind of prose you see these days. But as far as insight into what Madison, Jefferson, and (mostly) Alexander Hamilton, it's clearly as important as the Constitution itself.

I believe that one of the things that has happened is that in our Natinal quest for equality between people, that we have mis-interpreted equality of opportunity with equality of achievement. If you take this route, then everyone deserves an equal share not because they worked for it, but simply because they exist. They might feel bad if they fail and we surely don;t want that because it is so unfair.

This idea flows through to the idea of representation as well. With an average IQ of 100, do you really wan your representative to vote with the 'majority' who have an understanding of world events as simplistic as their intelligence?

I don't.

I want my representatives to have sufficient intelligence to recognize when decisions turn out to be more complex than they had first imagined and to apply creative solutions to problems. Ideally, I want them to be smarter than I am. Do I want them on my side? Sure! I want a Conservative approach to government, defense, economy, you name it!

We've already got Majority Rule. We are WAY behind. IMO it's going to take something major for conservatives to get back in the driver's seat--something really big. The libs are going to have to fail Big Time to make the great swing vote in the middle swing over here again. That scares the hell out of me I must say, to recognize that. It means a lot of suffering and, frankly, I don't like to suffer very much.

I'm glad I'm older. If I were younger I just don't think I could take it. I am so tired.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
5 years 23 weeks ago, 7:05 PM

charley9toe

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schuyler

The language structure was about the same as my English 101 class was. When all the original representatives huddled together to "negotiate" the Constitution "they" were in fact very select and diverse (but certainly not street rabble). That is what I believe the "model" representative should be. Today, we have career politicians that "LEVERAGE" their positions, in some cases to enrich themselves or their family. We have substantial evidence of that now. enough

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 23 weeks ago, 8:48 PM

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George Sorous has donated millions to left leaning causes. He was a major reason Obama had so much money to crush Mcain. Sorous even paid for Acorn and protesters.
Bill Clinton had Chinese money, North Korean cash and middle eastern gold. They are making decisions contrary to the best inerests of the US. Examples of this would be the chinese most favored nation status (which flooded the mortgage market with cash causing the bailout), selling of nuclear secrets/technology to N. Korea which ened up being used for weapons.
Not sure what Bush. But there it all is. If we could at least stop the forein influence we could come together as a nation.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do
5 years 23 weeks ago, 8:05 AM

samD

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is the Parties themselves. If you follow the Party line and vote as directed then you receive better commitee assignments, Commitee Head, better offices, more staff, more budget and God knows what else. Remember that congressman from back east, he was an Indian, he bucked the democratic Party, he ended up with a closet 5X5 office. He had NO staff. I wish I could remember his name, Jim something with Horse in it.
So if you don't toe the party line you get no percs. These guys live on percs.
So if we had term limits, equal size offices and staff. Regulated their budgets and put the people with banking experience on the banking commitees, then it would be a start to a fair and balanced government.
I also think that a politician must declare his political leanings. If he is a left wing, anti-abotionist then so be it!
It would be a start!

5 years 23 weeks ago, 11:05 AM

runawaygun762

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Almost as soon as Arlen Specter (sp) jumped ship, he got an assignment to some committe or another that another Democrat "let him have". I don't have sources, I know I could find it if I looked, but I have to shit and it's too late to turn back now. I'm sure samD or Schuyler will know what I'm talking about.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.

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