Forums / Political & Legal / Some thoughts on the subject of Police Officer murder.

4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:50 PM

greg az

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As an example of how difficult this is, i had to change the subject from "Cop killing" which is obviously what it is, and what we all call it.. But when viewed in print it seemed so disrespectful that i changed it. This whole subject is sick, and i think this is the first post that i havn't enjoyed typing. After i read Reap's post on the death of Lt. Eric Shuhandler, and after what happened last month in Greasys area of Washington its just something i wanted to get off my chest.

This is all part of whats changed, and gone wrong in America. For those of you who are under 40 this issue of police being killed in the line of duty is just a fact of life. DUH! cause it IS a fact of life, you can't turn on the news with out hearing of an Officer being shot. What happened?

All of you who were born long enough ago to remember carburators and tv tubes, also remember when Police really didn't get shot all that often.. I was rasied in Peoria Illinois, 150 miles from Chi town, and the home of a couple of large syndicate gangs that controled all the illegal (things that are mostly legal today) action in down state Illinois. The streets were pretty rough, not like today by any means, but still pretty rough.. Crimes sure nothing new in our country.. But the killing of Police is.. The wife (who grew up in rough blue collar Chicago) and i have talked about this offten. Most kids go thru a phase where they have some rough edges and want to run around with kids who are even rougher.. Back then we all had the same thing drilled into us.. YA DON'T KILL A COP! period.. You didn't because it would result in your swift and sure demise.. Is this whats lacking. Is it the errosion of morals.. I honestly don't know, but im sure glad i was rasied in an era when the bad guys honestly lived by that motto..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 2:15 PM

runawaygun762

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Okay, that's not entirely correct, but the criminal justice system is and should be, geared toward giving the offender the benefit of the doubt. However, this current system has surpassed that to the point where not only is the burden of proof on the prosecution, but the burden of proof against any wrongdoing is on the police. Brake checking an unbuckled wife beater on the way back to the station, offenders who "resist arrest" against half a dozen cops after beating up a fellow officer coming in barely conscious, things like that are pretty well a thing of the past, and bad guys know they will be coddled or will become rich after the lawsuit. While I have no love for cops, and don't have much use for them, I do understand their hands are tied and criminals can get away with a lot more than they used to be able to. There is also, of course, the image perpetuated through gangsta rap that "thug life" and being a fuckhead who is dumb enough to get caught and actually do time, rather than keeping under the radar and actually having a successful criminal career is the preferred lifestyle.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 3:27 PM

Pkato

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mainly because one of my brothers. My one brother has a different father (my parents were divorced/remarried years later) He was a good cop, good guy and was killed for the dumbest of reasons (in the line of duty)...but anyway, both my brothers are also cops and are actually the kind you wouldn't be pissed with if ever pulled over. Despite my rantings prior, they are both fair minded and occasionally let people off with a warning, but not often...but then again, they don't pull over people unless they are really doing something worth being pulled over for. Anyway, I see both of them first as my brothers, who are good people, as fathers and they are excellent fathers and husbands who both are raising their families as we would all agree with. Both are conservative and are pained what is happening to our country. So, why anyone would want to kill them or harm them is really beyond me. But, as is the case most times someone is pulled over, arrested, detained or whatever...the reason usually is their OWN doing, not the cops. These people who kill officers are usually upset with the cops overall, a particular cop or the system...but it's their own fault. As for what you touched on, I don't think one thing can explain it...but media, acceptable violence (video games/music/rap lifestyle, etc etc, breakdown of the family and a host of other things) add to the problem. It's really up to the parents to keep the kids on the straight road, but so many parents have forgotten about being parents...they are too wrapped up with job success, money and providing THINGS for their family. I believe the destruction of American families is the core of the problem, although not the only thing. My parents taught me to respect police and I still do for the most part. However, if it weren't for them teaching me this, who knows.. I remember listening to police officers the same way I listened to my folks...if I was told to do something I just did it. Anyway...it's a terrible situation and what's worse, every officer gunned down is then used by the liberals as fodder for anti gun legislation...it's maddening, but unfortunately we are headed for even worse times in my opinion. I like Ted Nugent's stance on police...he says to get to know them, invite them to your house--especially if you are a gun owner. Let the police know you have guns, let them know you belong to the NRA, ask about local programs for teaching firearms safety, start up a program. I grew up in the 60s and I remember seeing the same officers in my neighborhood...they were our neighbors, the had a closer relationship with the people for whatever reason. Sorry for so long.

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
4 years 22 weeks ago, 6:30 PM

runawaygun762

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is of course, complacency. If you get a return on an NCIC warrant check and don't wait for backup, you are not showing how tough you are, you are showing you have gotten complacent. Cops as a whole come to rely on the fact that people will respect the badge, so when they encounter someone who is ready to shoot first without regard for life or consequences, they tend to fall over DRT. Police work has been a dangerous thing for long enough that cops know what they're getting into when they put on the uniform. During my LE recert in FT Riley, our use of force class was given by a JAG attorney who was also a DT instructor. He talked about a Texas DPS officer who gave a lecture on the reverse levels of force. The officer said when he steps out of his car, the first thing he does is determines who needs to get shot. If nobody needs to get shot, then he has all the time in the world to de-escalate, but if an officer starts at the low end and a bad guy pulls a gun, you have a split second to get into the lethal force mindset (sorry again, LLE) before you get killed. When conducting a traffic stop or responding to any call for that matter, you should be in condition red. You have identified a threat and are preparing to engage with the appropriate level of force. If that level is verbal persuasion, good. If that level is deadly force, so be it. Regardless of what Dr Piazza at Front Sight may say, mindset is the biggest factor in determining the outcome of a dynamic event.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 10:27 PM

greg az

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The other side of the coin is over jealious use of force, its cost all depts a fortune, and the more cameras the more that will be the case.. I can sure understand an officer by his/her self going from the highest level.. In my situation (corrections) we had constant use of force investigations.. I had like five of them against myself.. I taught the use of force compendium and always taught it with the knowledge that my officers were going to get investigated for over use..There for using only what was necessary to control the situation.

Obviously diffrent than the lone uniform in the middle of the boonies with (who knows what) in the seat of the vehicle hes just stoped.

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 10:35 PM

Vaquero

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Greg

The officer in the boonies has me on his side. more than once I stopped just ahead of the officer and the vehicle he pulled over. In the middle of nowhere.
I stayed till he released the other and was always approached.
May I help you? I am asked.
No sir, I just want to make sure you don't need help, I reply.
A big thanks and we are both on our way. No questions like 'are you armed' or anything.
Not much I can do for correctional officers. I have never been incarcerated.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 22 weeks ago, 10:51 PM

greg az

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Lets face it.. in rural America most people carry.. least in TX, AZ, NM, UT, ID, MT, its a pretty safe bet..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:15 PM

zx12rmike

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Thanks for rubbing it in greg!

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 10:54 PM

Vaquero

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As I said earlier

They take one look at this redneck and they know.
BTW, how far are you from Mexican Hat , UT. Or the Navajo reservation in general?
I spent 2 weeks there working, damn fine folks, just mighty thick ice to break.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:14 PM

greg az

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Thats one of my old stomping grounds (nav res) you don't really know what wilderness is in the lower 48 till you get up around many farms.. that road from keyenta to monument valley takes my breath away.. i usta camp at the mittens overlook.. couple of beers and that view is pretty much heaven.. where abouts on the res were you vaq.

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:22 PM

greg az

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could kick myself.. mikes right Vaq..sorry if that hurt..guess i was just saying i understand..
And no bears were around 5K in the weaver mts..so we have lot of mule, javalina, and lion.. but no bear.. game and fish had a special hunt for elk couple years ago, supposedly some wondered down from up around kingman area, but no locals ever saw them.. I will tell ya im flat afraid of Bear... really am... usta do a lot of back woods camping and even black beer scare me.. I had a trapper 94 that i really liked, but traded it, and yep need to get a long gun..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:29 PM

Vaquero

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Reservation

I spent 5 days at Chinle the 4 at Kayenta.
No booze on the res. Hauled ass to Mexican Hat for a 6 pack. Had it all drank before I figured out the 2.3 or whatever they call that weak shit. Monument Valley is awesome, I went on the back side with a native for work purposes. There is a big high chainlink fence around about 30 acres or so. I asked "what the hell is that for"? Turns out, the uranium for all U.S. nuclear weapons was mined from there. Made a lot of Navajo sick and many died. Ironic huh?
John Wayne made his most memorable films in the area that just as likely killed him as killed the natives. On a brighter note, the Motel resturant at Chinle was also the "coffee shop" for the locals. Yeah, I know what being the minority is like. They had the "Code Talker Room" in the back just for the Local WWII Vets who were immoralized in the Wind Talker movie.
I only hope I can take my bride to see some of the beautiful country I saw on tha "working Vacation". I a nut shell Greg, I went places other white men have never seen. Literally 38 degrees outside looking over a snow covered valley 10 minutes later running the AC on the desert floor at 98 degrees. Gods Country!

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:46 PM

greg az

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One of those things that makes you think when something is this beautiful, how can people have doubts about it being "designed".. Navajo's are a trip, i had a buddy i served with that was from chinle. Tried to find him while i was there but no luck.. Navajo's are really funny when you get to know them.. just culture diffrences.. not big about eye contact like we are, or talking about death...nope, not a good subject.. Jerry (guy i served with) swore that in one of the old John Ford movies shot in monument valley (cant remember which one) they have a sceen with a bunch of Navajo's mounted, and talking (pretty realistic for holliwood at the time) in Navajo to each other.. Jerry says they would all go to the drive in and watch it when he was a kid, cause the the translated dialog was "the white mans a prick".. then the other navajo says "yea, and he sucks a big indians dick"... Jerry said they played the movie every saturday night, and everyone would chant it along with the the actors and laugh thier ass off.. pretty funny..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:52 PM

Vaquero

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Greg

That is RICH! I do not doubt you or your comrade one bit.
If any race can make the anglo mix of America look stupid, it is the Navajo of NE Arizona.
The McDonalds at Chinle taught me a valuable lesson. Little kids looking at me like I just stepped off a space ship.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 11:57 PM

CharlesW

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Stagecoach

was the John Wayne movie, filmed in 1938

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:03 AM

CharlesW

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Monument Valley

There were 16 major movies shot in Monument Vally
Also The TV Lone Ranger was shot there
In How the west was won if you watch close there is a
jet plane flying over in a valley scene

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:06 AM

greg az

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I know Ford did a bunch of movies at monument valley, and ive heard what Vaq said about Wayne maybe getting C from there..I wasnt sure which movie it was.. Vaq. i also got off the beaten path..which is REAL easy to do on the res. and stoped at a couple of little villages that were unchanged from the 1800's ...this is FACT.. no english spoken by the older folks and they lived in hogans.. out side of a couple of upturned trucks it could have been 150 years ago. I also know you can drive for hours with out seeing another vehicle, and Vaq.. dont know about your experiance.. but i was amazed how most all trucks (all they drive of course) are Fords.. I have one of each, so not a loyalty thing..just amazed that seeemed like most all the trucks on the res were Fords. Least when i was there last..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:12 AM

Vaquero

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Fords on the res

Absolutely.
Did you know, or did anyone here for that matter. The hogan is built by the tribe for women who come of age. They recieve land and the dwelling. If she marries, the man must then build a covered porch over the doorway. A hogan with no porch indicates a single womans home.
A porch or stoop indicates a man is about. Then the man builds a shack out about 30 yards.
When the woman is menustrating she stays in the shack until she clears up and moves back in the house that belongs to her in the first place.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:15 AM

CharlesW

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move to the shack

Don't want to stink the place up lol

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:44 AM

zx12rmike

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Besides, don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die!

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:20 AM

Vaquero

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CW

I can hear it now.
GET YOUR STINKIN ASS OUTTA HERE!
Oh yeah, I'm gonna try that one, real soon. NOT.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:23 AM

Anonymous

my wife gets mean monthly so she can move her ass out to a hogan for 5 to 7 then she can come back into the house!

4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:29 AM

greg az

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see ya all in the am..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:30 AM

CharlesW

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greg

stay on your side of the bed

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:32 AM

Vaquero

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greg

g'nite bud.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:29 AM

Vaquero

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greasy

In our society, it is called a "shop". The man goes whenever he fuckin feels like it!

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:39 AM

CharlesW

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Vaquero

I lucked into a 40 ft travel trailer.
I guted it and it makes a damn nice shop.
I do a lot of wood work, works out nice

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:44 AM

Vaquero

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Sounds nice. Whatever keeps your hands busy.
I do metalwork.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:00 AM

CharlesW

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Vaguero

I was a mold maker almost 30 years
I've worked in machine shops all my life.
I used to fit new rifle stocks for people
I knew. You can fit them nicely on a mill.

Now I build yard deco like wagon wheels etc

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:06 AM

Vaquero

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I just build whatever strikes me. Dad was a mechanic in the army back in the 50s. Learned welding and such there. Came back to the farm and taught us 3 boys how to fix broke stuff and such. I guess I don't do much wood cuz if I cut wood too short, I can't put it back together. With metal, I can build nearly whatever I can think up.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:46 AM

zx12rmike

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I'm an rookie wood worker myself. I took over 1/3 of the garage, built myself a battleship of a work bench.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:48 AM

Vaquero

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Mike

You got it buddy! don't give up that space.
After all she got the closet.

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4 years 22 weeks ago, 12:53 AM

zx12rmike

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Boy did she! I don't know why greg was saying in his other post about reminiscing about old guns, I love it. I was kidding about him bragging, when he said everyone has guns and carries and all that. I wasn't chastising him, I was complaining about Kalifornia again, just to clear that up. Too bad greg went to bed already. I think greg is a great guy and don't want him thinking anything else.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:04 AM

Anonymous

a shop?no shit?

in my current residence(a rental)i have my 8x10 utility shed that i have fully converted to a gun shop.i have satellite tv with dvd/vcr and surround sound in there!if you look thru my pics on here you will see plenty of my gun work i have built in my "tiny" shop.i cut a hole in the wall and installed a propane furnace out of an old travel trailer to keep it warm.I also have a generator wired in in case the power goes out.just outside the door is a fridge to keep soda cold in(i dont drink anymore).i am looking around for a used travel trailer to better suite my needs,i am just running out of space with all my reloading stuff and everything else.had everything here in the house for awhile but the wife bitched about the Hoppe's smell so I moved out to the shed again.now she bitches about the extra expense on the satellite tv bill.gotta have my outdoor channel...now i just need to run an internet connection out there...

4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:16 AM

CharlesW

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my shop

The 1st thing I had to do was build an 8 ft sliding door
with a ramp.
I have a
AC/DC welder
table saw
4 ft lathe
drill press
shaper
planer
belt/disc sander
chop saw with 8 ft table
and portable tools
3 routers
belt sander
angle grinder
and anything else you might think I need lol

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:10 AM

Vaquero

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GP

Damn straight! Sounds like you just about got it all covered. Storing powder is a bitch ain't it.
Hell, a mans gotta keep warm. It's just spooky lighting a flame near your reloading stuff.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:20 AM

Anonymous

powder locker

i have an old gym locker that i keep my powder in to keep it safe from heat and flame.it has wire mesh at the top and bottom so that warm air will circulate but i dont have to worry about bad shit happening

4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:27 AM

CharlesW

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paws

I used to use an old refrigerator as a powder locker

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 22 weeks ago, 1:24 AM

Vaquero

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Good nite

Its late here, or real early. However you want to look at it.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

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