Forums / Strategies, Tactics & Training / Something for anyone with a CCW permit.

4 years 19 weeks ago, 5:30 PM

hillbilly77

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I want to introduce you to a hypothetical man named John Smith. John Smith is a private citizen. That means that he is not hampered by political directives or policies at federal, state or local levels. But John thinks he is "just a civilian". John has sought mediocrity his entire life. John was bred to be mediocre from the time he was enrolled in first grade. It is what he was trained for since birth....don't make waves...be a nice guy...you can't do this...you can't do that...do as you are told and be a good mediocre civilian citizen.

Then John realized he'd better buy a pistol and carry it because his neighbor was robbed, beaten, raped or brutalized, and the police did not come in time for anything but the report. Being a father and a husband, he did have a glimmering of the understanding of responsability.

So he went to the local gunstore and allowed the patronizing oversized cigar-smoking salesman to talk him into buying a double action only Smith and Wesson because it had several safeties and a real heavy and long trigger pull. "It is great for a mediocrity-seeking civilian like you John", announced the salesman as he wiped doughnut juice on his dingy Local Police Revolver Club t-shirt.

John asked about the Glocks and XDs and M&Ps that looked so modern and cool, and about how many bullets the clip held.

"Oh no...those are for professionals son....you are a civilian...you don't need anything like that. And why do you need more than seven rounds son. You're not gonna go commando on us are you?".

Being a mediocrity seeker, and not wanting to be guilty of the sin of arguing, John blushed and chuckled nervously. He bought the Smith and Wesson and went home. He did go to a free handgun clinic at the local range taught by an ex-security guard after he passed his CCW class. But all the guy talked about was how he would get sued if he ever shot anyone so not to shoot anyone. John went to that range a couple of times and shot one round per second like a good mediocre citizen.

Someone told him about more comprehensive classes teaching gunfighting, but John laughed nervously again. Shaking his head he told himself, I am not a gunfighter...I am just a civilian...what do I need to do with gunfighting?" He was a civilian and did not need to go to one of those "commando schools", or learn how to kill like that crazy ad said. He didn't like carrying a gun in the first place and was beginning to convince himself to just leave it at home. That is what his wife would want even though she had allowed him to buy the gun in the first place.

So John went on with his life doing his best to avoid bad things, bad places and bad people. But one day, as much as he tried, as much as anyone tries, trouble came to him. He found himself at church when some crazy terrorist decided today was going to be Judgement Day. After shooting the pastor in the head, he began shooting people in the crowd. The congregation was also full of mediocrity seekers, and those that did not get shot outright, ran away like properly conditioned civilians are trained to do.

But John was torn about running with the rest of the herd, or fighting. He drew his pistol and tried to aim it but it felt strange in his hands....after all civilians did not need to train like Delta Force so John had spent his free time playing tennis and watching television instead. He wondered if he was ready to do what he was thinking of doing. At that moment a round from the terrorist caught his frozen wife right in the face and dropped her dead at his feet. As he turned open-mouthed, to see her die, three rounds hit him in the chest, two piercing his heart.....and the last thought that he had before he faded into blissfull unconscious death was,

"......but I am just a civilian".

“If ever time should come,when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced Patriots to prevent it's ruin."Samuel Adams
4 years 19 weeks ago, 6:39 PM

HampsterW

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I am an "armed civilian" (great post hillbilly). I think that military weapons training is a great thing, it is something you never forget. It is always a good idea to practice and practice often, for sure.
I went through weapons training in the Coast Guard, Cape May, NJ. That was close to twenty years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday; I still hit the range as often as I can for practice.
I can't say what I would do in any given situation, but I would try my best to do the right thing given my training.
You are correct, just because one is armed doesn't mean one is effective.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 19 weeks ago, 6:45 PM

zx12rmike

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I liked this post as well. Training and continued practice is good for security and safety for all. Not to mention fun!

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 19 weeks ago, 6:49 PM

HampsterW

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Kinda tough

on the wallet though...LOL

I need to start reloading.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 19 weeks ago, 6:56 PM

zx12rmike

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Hamp, you are absolutely correct. When I can get the time to go out to the desert with my buddies, I set aside time to practice the stuff I think is important. Sometimes the guys just want to terrorize targets (rapid fire). I save a little time for remembering safe draw techniques. I don't have military experience with weapons, so the basics are very important to me. I was in a hydraulics shop on the USS Midway. Not a lot of need for weapons training (lol) The last time I went to the local range, they didn't want me practicing my draw even unloaded!.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 19 weeks ago, 7:09 PM

hillbilly77

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When I read this......

it kinda made me go wow. I was talking with som of my close freinds about it and we all agreed that about 75-85% of people with a ccw permit would probably suffer the ending as the gentlemen in the story. We would all like to say that we would have just drawn and shot at the sound of somebody opening up in church.But in church your at what most people would consider their most at peace places.To have it interupted by gun fire would put some of the most season guys damn near in shock. It just made all of us kinda sit back and think.

“If ever time should come,when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced Patriots to prevent it's ruin."Samuel Adams
4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:16 PM

CharlesW

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carry in Church? I bet most leave it in the car

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 14 weeks ago, 10:11 PM

kill4pennies

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dangerous not to carry

Always carry if you can. all it takes is that one time you left it in the car for something horible to happen. churches are often the target of things like this. just make sure you carry your small one so you dont freak anybody out if they see your burner. another reason to not leave your piece in your car is because this: what if somebody breaks into your car. no more gun.

4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:05 PM

Shakleford

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One, Not To Be Fked With!!

"Two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red the white the blue.The other ones got a rattlesnake with a simple statement made, Don’t Tread On Me is what it says"
4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:18 PM

CharlesW

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to have a cold front move through. I'm ready
for warm weather in Waco

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:57 PM

photobear6

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I won't carry in schools or gov. buildings but when I take my family to church it's on me. To many nut cases in this world and I refuse to be a unarmed victim. I at least want a fair chanceto fight back.

America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at the Mall. If you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front of them!
4 years 19 weeks ago, 10:08 PM

raffycanlas

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i carry everywhere

even at places where its probably not allowed, its concealed, they have no right to search me.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
4 years 19 weeks ago, 10:29 PM

DEMO

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I carry at church

I have a ccp in ny. After the church shootings a few years ago, I decided to carry. No problems yet. Our pastor has the same concern. He asked me about smaller weapons he may carry because he only has a 357 for deer and its huge. We worry that our right to worship will be infringed in the future. Especially when the president of the United States denies that the nation was found under religious freedom.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do
4 years 19 weeks ago, 1:53 AM

Lyle Hutchins 1

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Carry @ Church

Damn right Carry @ Church!
I have always carried @ church. A Police Officer friend, I'v known for years knows how many members carry, and incourigious us to carry.
He tells us he feels better to know that if something goes down, he won't be alone.
Both of his Sons carry, they also train other Police Officers on the Range.
The oldest Son was 19 years old, when he became a Glock Armorer.
My friend lost his life two years ago, when he was going home after the end of his shift.
A tractor trailer, was stopped in the middle of the travel lane, (0100 hours) looking at a map, and Les came over a slight hill, and hit the back of the truck. Les was killed instantly.
I know I got off the subject, but Les would incourge you to CARRY!

Lyle

Lyle Hutchinson
4 years 19 weeks ago, 2:05 AM

CharlesW

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I know it was hard on his family
sorry to hear that

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 19 weeks ago, 6:00 PM

luckybychoice

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okay

Hillbilly i'm calling BS on the hypothetical story,escpecially when you interject 75-85% numbers into it.Not saying there isn't a few people going thru a concealed carry course just for looks or because they think it's the "in" thing to do,but just signing up for a CC course a person has to have thought thru many different scenarios,war gamed situations, and if that person goes to church some thought had to be made before he even went to the CC course about whether he would carry at church.

If you have your CCP you know that after taking the course you are going to be held to a higher level of responsibility and your mindset should be on your surroundings,your gun control,and "what if" scenarios.The story you presented was of an individual that was in condition "white" and had obviously not wargamed anything other than denial.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN
4 years 14 weeks ago, 10:30 PM

kill4pennies

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i might have to agree

why would somebody get their ccp if they didn't want to carry their gun in case of extreme conditions. or else they would just put it in a safe where they cant even get to it if something dod happen. that is stupid. unless you have several (insurance dont cover guns) but yeah if i had a friend who had a cc and watched people get mowed down in any situation i would kick his ass, if he didn't kick his own. i get the point of the story though. one does need to keep his skils sharp. i have been trained in many deadly arts. i would be the first to draw and shoot. i know that law and when i can kill and when i cant. I am not in any hurry to take a life. if you have taken one before, you would know that it is heavy on your head and heart. you shouldn't be ready to take a life, instead you should be ready to save the lives of those who are in harms way and do with out hesitation what is necesary to defend those lives.

“War kills men, and men deplore the loss; but war also crushes bad principles and tyrants, and so saves societies.”

4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:37 AM

runawaygun762

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My family is at 50%

My wife and I both have our CC permits and she rarely carries. Even driving to Tucson for the weekend with a friend, she didn't want to take her XD. I convinced her, but it's not a lifestyle for her. I carry EVERYWHERE. I actually forgot to take my Glock off before walking into the station today. I had to go back out to the truck and put the Glock away so I could put on my belt with the holster for my M9.

LBC, I don't know the percentage, and I doubt anyone does, but I bet the majority of people with CC permits put the gun on sometimes and do not wargame various scenarios. Here's an experiment to try; Think of a store or two that you frequent a lot. In my case, it would be Wal-Mart and Fry's supermarket. Now think about where all the external doors are. Do you know? Now that you've got the external door locations in mind, try to remember to do a walk around next time and see if you were right.

Do you guys have an emergency action plan for these buildings? If you hear gunfire coming from the front registers, where do you and your family members move to? What if you hear gunfire coming from the front and automotive?

I truly think the majority of people with permits may be at condition yellow or equivalent for a couple weeks at most after getting the permit, but the day in, day out boring life soon kicks back in and people go back to their normal routine. This is why I think an active shooter incident in a place like Sierra Vista here will end up with a few "Friendly fire" incidents where CC people will shoot each other because of the confusion and seeing strangers with guns running around.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:48 AM

HampsterW

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friendly fire

runawaygun762 wrote:

This is why I think an active shooter incident in a place like Sierra Vista here will end up with a few "Friendly fire" incidents where CC people will shoot each other because of the confusion and seeing strangers with guns running around.

yep, I can see something like this happening, for sure.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:51 AM

samD

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24/7. I know the ingress and egress of most of the places that I go. I choose my table and seating position at restaurants so that I am at a vantage point to see and scoot or shoot. With my pocket pistol my hand is generally on it in a strange situation.
As I tell my wife, when I yell a direction start moving with me and if you are not fast enough you will have my footprints on your back from me running over the top of you.
I don'f know how many times that I have reminded her to be "aware of your surroundings" but I don't think it really sinks in on her. We both worked in San Francisco for a few years, I watched reflections in store windows and tried to stay alert. My wife was didybopping down Market St and some paranoidschitzoid jumped out from behind a telephone pole and yelled at her, she had never even seen him. I wasn't there at the time, but I reminded her, it was lucky he didn't have a gun or a knife.
In the car especially in Tucson, windows are up, doors are locked and a piece is laying on the center console.
I really feel naked without a gun on...

4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:56 AM

runawaygun762

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In the unlikely event you are involved in one of those bump and rob things or a road rage incident, the gun may end up under a seat. I slide my gun between the driver's seat and center console so the pressure of me sitting down pins the gun in place with the grip right next to the gear shifter in the wife's car. In my Ford, I'll just use the truck as a weapon with the gun as a backup.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:02 AM

Mark3030

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Center console

runawaygun762 wrote:
I slide my gun between the driver's seat and center console so the pressure of me sitting down pins the gun in place with the grip right next to the gear shifter in the wife's car. In my Ford, I'll just use the truck as a weapon with the gun as a backup.

I keep a holster valcrowed to center console of my truck that way it wont move around on me.
plus the holster i carry

"the thrill of the hunt"
4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:16 AM

samD

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Mine does have a nice recess where the pocket pistol en hoster sits pretty good. But yes my Suburban makes a great weapon also...

4 years 19 weeks ago, 8:58 AM

Mark3030

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she figures i carry so she doesn't have to, its my job not hers she'll carry when she has to go to bad part of town otherwise she woun't if i 'm with her but I carry everywhere

"the thrill of the hunt"
4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:08 AM

HampsterW

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I carry everywhere

as well, I have never seen a no guns allowed sign anywhere that
I have been here in Utah but I wouldn't care any way Fuck em'.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:09 AM

Mark3030

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I boycot Pep Boys

due to thier sign on the store front

"the thrill of the hunt"
4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:14 AM

samD

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I ignore them, but I don't usually spend my money at these joints. It is not really a law, but if I am asked to leave, I will. Have never been asked though. I just don't think that I need someones permission to defend myself...

4 years 19 weeks ago, 9:14 AM

HampsterW

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I wouldn't be

caught dead in a Pep Boys/ Checker/ Autozone, but then again I am a
parts guy that happens to have the keys to WD in his pocket...LOL

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
4 years 14 weeks ago, 5:00 PM

Builtf0rdtough

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I think its a good reminder for CCW holders. I agree with the mundain everyday things we do kinda helps erase the higher level of security but cant let it. I think that because I am in the police academy my awareness is higher than it would be had I not pursued the career Im in now. But I also carry in church, too many muslims in America now days(not that they are all bad, just most) and any other radical group. I guess its the "in" thing to do now days, hate God. Stupid Idiots dont know that it is only by God that America is the way it is.....IN GOD WE TRUST. forever amen. I always pick the booth in the back when we go out to eat and I just watch people the whole time. lol, cant help it, too many bad people now days. I dont trust anyone. Its all about money and power anymore and it sickens me. What ever happend to the gold ole American way. A handshake ment everything. I also never go anywhere without the good ole trusty g23...13hp's just for whoever wants a new peircing. I have deffinantly thought about killing someone, and I can do it. They put me in the situation and they are the cause for the shot to be fired, had they not done what they did I would not have to impose the meeting with God. (was told that by an insrtucter to make us feel better about using leathal force). I run senarios all the time in my head..I always think what if I saw someone point a gun at someone else, well shit, Id shoot them no questions...Sheep needs sheepdogs like babies need food.

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy"-Winston Churchill
4 years 14 weeks ago, 7:06 PM

photobear6

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It must be a guy thing

or maybe cop/military thing I thought I was just getting paranoid in my age but when ever I'm in someplace My mind is always going thru scenarios on what could go wrong and where I'd move to. Always watching certain types of people ( Yea OK So I'm Profiling) But I don't think that I need to watch the motherand father with a kid or grandma and grandpa. No I'm keeping a eye on the little punks that well they look like punks. As for shooting somebody I have thought alot about it and in my personal opinion i would find it harder to shoot a animal than someone trying to me harm, people make choices animals act on instinct.

America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at the Mall. If you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front of them!
4 years 14 weeks ago, 10:05 PM

Builtf0rdtough

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there is nothing wrong with profiling. its just the dam liberals making it out to be such a bad thing. I think its common sense and if your smart you would realize everyone does it.(when I say you I dont mean anyone here ofcorse :)) bu its just a lib thing to make everything common sense bad. You would be a complete dumbass to not profile, nobody would ever catch criminals if they didnt profile. Its only todays ignorant people that we are like we are. Nothing makes sense anymore, and if it does, we cant do it.

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy"-Winston Churchill
4 years 14 weeks ago, 1:14 AM

greg az

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I noticed this last couple of times we were down in the valley.. Retirement to "rural" AZ has made me lose half a step (ok..maybe more) this was a big thing obviously when i was with the dept.. You spend enough time on a Prison yard and you actually do pick up potential threats, and adjust levels by osmosis..spell check is busted, sorry, and hang on. This might get ugly..

Obviously your in condition yellow all the time as minimum.. So many hundred little things i wont bore ya, but sitting with your back to anything "BUT" a wall and having a visual on entrance and exit. is such an automatic that when ever we stop at a restaurant Gloria can now pick out the "best" seat as quick as i can..

When ever we ate out with the family i had to make a mental effort not to show this.. Obviously its a good idea to project a proactive "vigilance" but with out having to telegraph you're in any form of a threat level.. I was pretty much a master at this, i could focus on everything in the restaurant (or where ever).. every member of the family.. any potential threat in any form.. and carry on a conversation where no one (with the exception of Gloria) was aware of this.. Course this might show the "sterling" levil of conversation around the Edwards residence..

The thing is that after 5 plus years of retirement I'm NO WHERE as sharp as i was.. Yes age is one factor.. I do try to make my range time a serious event.. I have fun.. Neat thing about being able to go twice a week.. but cost keeps the amount fired down a bit.. so i play a bit with the .22 and get serious when i pull out the 38..

Told someone the other day.. i do a cylinder with what ever i take SA from distance.. Then approach the target and do a tactical reload with speed loader and another cylinder DA.. I've stayed "fairly" sharp in terms of shooting skills, but just a fact of life or at least reality i do NOT have the "edge" i had before retirement.. Be interesting to see what happens when (and if) we move back down to the valley...

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 14 weeks ago, 1:27 AM

CharlesW

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Hey Padre whats up

Hows the hand ? I've always found a table or booth
with my back against the wall just by instinct
. My brother spent 30 years with Texas DPS and he
has the same thoughts we do. Never know who or what
is going to walk in. After 30 years I know he has made a
few people unhappy.
This is a shame we have to discuss this but such is life
in the big city and the small hick towns.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 14 weeks ago, 1:58 AM

greg az

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Hi brothers..

Mike, Dubya..that's a for real comment (brothers thing).. Hope all is good with you guys..Yeah i sliced the fingers up pretty good this time.. Thought i was going to have to throw in a couple of stitches.. got the extra small needle all bent good enough to fish with it.. put on some nylon thread..Figured id freeze it good with ice, and then do a couple three... So as last recourse i tried super glue and duct tape.. its still "seeping" a bit.. but much better.. no pain at least..

Hey Mike, did you find anyone to pin the sights on guy..

Lyle.. Just read the "banjo" comment...laughing...squeel like a pig... we love ya, but you do scare us brother, by the way ..did you read CW's comment about taking the shotie to the tornadoes...

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 14 weeks ago, 1:58 AM

Anonymous

PadregAZ

your sights are silver soldered on and I cant find anyone local to do it.it has to be done after the bluing is done otherwise the bluing will eat thru the solder.(at least I have done the research!)

4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:08 AM

CharlesW

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I had a jeweler friend in Dallas who was a gun nut.

He did a lot of silver soldering

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:07 AM

greg az

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That the bluing would have an effect on the solder.. so whats the stroy is there a way to keep the joint from being noticeable.. I'd hate to have your matt finnish messed up with a visable solder joint.. any thoughts here ?

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:13 AM

CharlesW

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Location:
Live in the wilderness, Republic of Texas, United States

you couldn't see them.
I was telling greasypaws I had a jeweler friend
in Dallas did a lot of silver soldering.
I've done quite a bit setting cutting tools
but we had an electronic machine that
zapped it.

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:23 AM

greg az

greg az's picture

Rank:
Secretary of Homeland Security
Points:
5873
Join Date:
Oct 2009
Location:
New York, NY, Maldives

Dubya.. I've mentioned this to greasy.. The real issue is to have that once in a life time set of matched pistols.. Thats driving this more than anything else.. I sorta want the bbls cut..(one is 5 the other 4 current) back to 3".. OK.. Grease ive also talked about cutting off the hammer spur. which is no deal..and making them DA only.. How would this look.. a bead front site.. Like a Shotgun..

Ok..Time for bed.. but think about what im saying here.. if we did these in DA only... im doing that hmmm thing.. night guys..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:24 AM

Anonymous

soldering

anyone who is decent at it could do it with no effect to the bluing from what I have learned about it.

4 years 14 weeks ago, 2:29 AM

Anonymous

PadregAZ

as far as DA only I dont see an issue other than maybe changing the hammer spring to compensate for a lighter hammer.and a shotgun bead in gold might look pretty sweet on them!i am gonna have to think on that too...

4 years 14 weeks ago, 6:13 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

TXLUCKYGUY's picture

Rank:
Major General
Points:
378
Join Date:
Dec 2009
TERRIFIC

Terrific original post. My dos centavos:

1. "Civilians" get into more trouble than the police or military ever will....there's simply a helluva lot more 'civilians' (I detest the distinction honestly) than popo or .mil. Plus 'civilians' rarely get to take advantage of deterrent effect, backup, less-lethal toys, armor and other things that are de rigeur for the boys in blue/green/black. Some of the best-trained people I know are 'just civilians'.

2. That said, many 'civilians' do invest in inefficient training simply because of the CDI or 'cool' factor'. When I was training fulltime I had a lot of requests for 'civilians' to take explosive entry, sniper, SMG or other courses that simply had zero practical application for them.

3. The biggest void I see in 'civilian' training is in the area of Force on Force training (firearms and otherwise). FoF simulations, with Simunitions or ATK sim rounds for instance, is the best bang for the buck once you lear how to run your gun. Litigation-driven restrctions by the manufacturers keep a lot of people from benefiting from these types of products, so if you find a credible trainer who offers SAFE, proven, efficient FoF training give it a long hard look. It might not be as 'tacticool' as burning 1500rds a day with an ex-SEAL or Green Beanie, but it is simply a more productive training tool for a majority of 'civilian' firearms engagements (home defense, CCW, etc.)

4. Avoid the 'Amway' effect and the 'Elephant Effect'.
The Amway Effect is where a person who has taken a ton of training courses, with little (or usually zero) actual practice/experience, and proclaims themselves an expert/instructor/ninja/whatever. These people may actually be sound resources for things like marksmanship, armorer courses, etc., but their tactics are often unsound and they have no foundation in actual conflict of any kind.
The Elephant Effect is an opposite, and equally dangerous problem. A person has been in a shootout, or has significant experience in conflict, and subsequently hangs out their shingle as the aforementioned expert. Their experience does not make then a talented or even adequate instructor, and important things like their insurance, facilities, safety, and credibility can take an unfortunate backseat to their having 'seen the elephant'.
There are TONS of good instructors, in almost every region, who have proper combinations of talent, experience, capital facilities/equipment, and training--seek them out!

Lastly, greg et al----there are a number of good aftermarket finishes (Lauer for instance) that can be home-applied, come in a variety of colors/effects, and shouldn't screw up a solder job due to the low heat used in baking them on.

4 years 13 weeks ago, 10:59 AM

zx12rmike

zx12rmike's picture

Rank:
President Pro Temp
Points:
7870
Join Date:
Dec 2008
Location:
commiefornia, United States
Profiling my dos pesos

OK, profiling has gotten some bad press lately and the libs expound on it drastically. What I want to reiterate is, how many lives civilian and LE have been SAVED by profiling? How can you live your life these days, and keep yourself safe without it? I don't care what color you are, or what color they are. This "profiling" has saved lives, so many they cannot be counted.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
4 years 13 weeks ago, 7:08 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

TXLUCKYGUY's picture

Rank:
Major General
Points:
378
Join Date:
Dec 2009
profiling

Profiling, at least as it is defined and pertains to LE work stateside, is detestable and does not contribute to safety. Using any single characteristic or indicator is inefficient and more likely to allow an officer to miss something important than snag Bin Laden Jr.

Taking multiple indicators into account (clothing, appearance, behavior, speech, eye contact) is much more likely to yield both sufficient probable cause for arrest/search AND find the bad guys. The bad guys have been contracting Chechen Muslims, Georgians, Indonesians and plenty of other "non-sandbox" people to do their dirty work, and they do this because it negates the single indicator of "Arab Muslim appearance".

Ex.: A person driving a vehicle out of the parking lot of a bar at 1am is a lousy reason to stop the car in my opinion and borders on the criminal. Following that car, observing driving behavior that indicates impairment, then making the stop---that's solid and righteous.

The same analogy applies to airport screeners, CCW holders keeping their church safe, etc. Run your OODA loops, stay yellow, and make a study of human behavior (body language, foreign customs, etc.). What a person actually does, even in the smallest amounts, is a better indicator of their intent than their religious dress or ethnic appearance.

4 years 13 weeks ago, 6:02 PM

runawaygun762

runawaygun762's picture

Rank:
Vice President
Points:
8929
Join Date:
Nov 2008
Location:
Richland, MO, United States

I am absolutely amazed by all the tactical shooting schools that sprang up after 9/11. I swear, anyone who had 40 acres and an AR suddenly became "The Chief of Training at Tactical Shooter Operator's School of Warrior Training". It's fucking disgusting. I understand completely that tactics, techniques, and procedures change with time and organization, but my original MOUT/UO/Urban Combat/Whatever you call it training was given to me by my first platoon sergeant in the infantry, who was former Delta. This man could pick up an M16 (We didn't have M4s when I first came in) and clear a room at the Ft Campbell killhouse faster than a four man fire team, and every bad guy target would have two rounds stacked one on top of another. To this day, I am more awestruck by him than any other person I have ever met. I learned all the basics of room clearing and reflexive fire from him, and I see no reason to pay 1200-2000 bucks to take a course that would really amount to nothing more practical than a piece of paper on my "I Love Me Wall". That money is better spent on ammo, maintaining and improving my shooting ability. The exception to this is, of course, CSAT with Paul Howe if he still teaches there.

So since we share a brain, howsabout sharing a wife? No? Alright, I had to try.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 12 weeks ago, 4:56 PM

Model29Lover

Model29Lover's picture

Rank:
First Lieutenant
Points:
25
Join Date:
May 2010
Location:
Ky, United States

I am a Marine who is no longer active and will agree that everyone with a concealed carry permit should be serious about thinking about scenarios, but I think we should go a step past this. I was an 0311 in the Marine Corps and also a member of the M.C.S.F.'s guarding nuclear weapons. Anyway, I am trying to make the point that I had a lot of training clearing rooms as well. Greg az makes a good point, when it has been a while since you have gone through speed clearing a room with live rounds and good guys present, one can not be as good as one used to be, period. That is why I am planning on going to get a lifetime membership at Frontsight, the best weapons training anyone can receive, and I am including military training as well!!!! Look them up and hear the Colonels and 20 plus year combat specialty Marines talk about how good Frontsight is. One of Frontsights current instructors was a Marine shooting instructor and didn't pass the Frontsight Instructor course the first time!!!! Anyway, they do a lot to change the minds of anti- gun people in the media and movie stars to help the cause. I am just excited to know that after 4 times going to Frontsight for one their 4 day classes I can go for free for the rest of my life!!!! Plus, one does not know what they do not know, until they learn something new and think to themself, I thought I knew it all... So even with my knowledge, I still can't go to the range and use their 'kill house' cause they don't have one!!!!! I also would like to say that people who want to shoot more accurately should dry fire with correct form, so that they can improve trigger control, so when they do fire live rounds, they will improve. Also using dummy rounds to surprise yourself with a click instead of a bang, this lets you see if you flinch or pull it with bad trigger push. Dry firing helps alot, only if you know good shooting positioning!!! I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all cause I am definitely not, I just like to tell fellow Conceal carry guys and gals what I have learned, so they won't make the mistakes I have. I also am not on Frontsight's payroll, I just have been impressed by them and wanted to let you all know.

"It is the unconquerable nature of man and not the nature of the weapon he uses that ensures victory." - Patton "He has not learned the lesson of life, he who does not every day surmount a fear" -Ralph Waldo Emerson
4 years 10 weeks ago, 9:31 PM

OozeRat

OozeRat's picture

Rank:
Major General
Points:
672
Join Date:
Feb 2010
Location:
West Jordan, Utah, United States

It seems that me and John Smith have a lot of things in common, though I did not buy the first 7 shot pistol a guy behind the counter tried to sell me and I do feel like I would be able to pull the trigger, unlike John. My primary concern has been whether or not I'd be able to hit anything in a high stress situation. After I read this post I feel I need to work on my awareness as well, I'm not nearly as good as Greg but I do try to know where the exits are and where they go. Out of the 5 people I work with, that I know have a permit, I think 4 of them got it for the "cool factor" since 3 of them admit openly that they do not carry regularly and the 4th told me he got his permit so he wouldnt have to pay for the background check. I try to carry as often as possible, kind of hard though as I'm not allowed to at work and it's against state law at my church. Oher than church&work my gun is rarely out of my site, my wife thinks I'm weird for carrying it around the house and practicing reloads and dry fires when I'm at the computer watchin videos.

Nothing is as risky as certain failure.

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