Forums / Off Topic / Sports Officiating---Degrading Quality??

2 years 42 weeks ago, 12:34 PM

LLE

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Maybe it is just that I am too old a fart, or maybe I am just stuck in the "good old days". Maybe it is both of those faults, and probably a few others, too, like watching my dad be a minor league baseball player, and then morph into a AAA umpire who would die a thousand deaths if he blew a call.

I realize that no one is perfect, and we all make mistakes--but when sports officials make obvious errors, I tend to take it very hard, because of how such a blown call may very well cheat deserving players/teams of "justice", and the fans--at the very least---of the answer to the question, "Who really won?"

Last night, I watched the Tostitos Bowl--Virginia Tech vs Michigan. It was a good, interesting game---although, IMO, not a "great" one. It ended in a tie, and went into OT. VT did not score on their first possession, and then Michigan, on their possession, drove close enough for a gimmie field goal, to win.

I am certain most of the TV viewers and many of the stadium audience saw the Michigan field goal kicker "false start" [moved forward] before the ball was snapped. Apparently NONE of the officials did. There was no call, and the "booth" apparently also said nothing. I certainly realize that a five yard penalty may not have changed the outcome of the game, BUT the point is that we will never know, and truth be told, we have two teams who are bitterly disappointed----Michigan has a contaminated win [did they REALLY win??], and VT has a contaminated loss [might they have won on the "next" OT series, but for the blown call??].

I submit that this is not the kind of lesson we want sports experiences to teach our youth, unless it is that life can be full of relatively unfair outcomes--so "be prepared".............

What do you think?

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 12:38 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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LLE

Yes, I believe it has. And I blame the instant replay for it. I think they (consciously or subconsciously) use it as a crutch to not pay as close attention or worry as much about making the right call.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:52 PM

LLE

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But I won't be too obsessive. We have developed an anointed and protected sect of people called sports officials, whether NCAA, or the Pro sports folks. They are just about untouchable, and if they are subject to censure for poor performance, we, the "customers" are never informed.

Management people get fired, players get fined, traded away or even banned, but officials!!??

Therein lies a deep flaw........Their collective bargaining reps must be the best that any Union can muster. I can just picture their grievance procedure contract language:
"A grievance filed automatically goes to arbitration. A grievance affirmed in favor of the officials, automatically results in the execution of the losing parties by firing squad". A grievance affirmed in favor of the respondents results in a hold harmless agreement and an absolute privacy clause, which if violated, will result in a payment of $1million per official involved per occurrence."

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 12:56 PM

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LLE

I am a Seahawks fan, I have been told to accept the decisions of the officials and move on with life. A good buddy of mine in Arizona has been told the same thing.

I watched the game you mentioned, I still think the VT wide out caught that ball on their first overtime possession. That is probably why I am not a referee...

clint

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2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:02 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Clint

Yeah, well you DO have a beef as a Seahawks fan. I am still pissed over SB XL. Y'all got effed in that one. Still think it was rigged to give "the Bus" a ring before retirement.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:17 PM

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SB XL

Thanks ST JMB,
But I can not blame the referees for the loss, I was there, I saw how terrible BOTH teams played. A disappointing game on all fronts. But I did learn that most of the stealers fans at SB XL were obnoxious jerks...

clint

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2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:27 PM

LLE

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for one's BP and general health to follow that advice---just let go of it and move on. Incidentally, I agree with you on "the catch" that was not a catch, but I am not obsessing about it.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:05 PM

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The modified Hokie Pokie ball address is considered to be totally legal now.

That is as long as he did not shake his foot all about.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:30 PM

LLE

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to me. I did look carefully at the film clip about five times, and the kicker's move did not look like it qualified for the modified HOKIE POKIE.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 1:55 PM

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ack, I call FOUL!

Seriously though, could you see what the game would be like if you took the 1972 Steelers and Green Bay teams respectively and put them head to head on the field today?

Football is not Football anymore...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 42 weeks ago, 2:38 PM

LLE

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there were no offensive and defensive teams. We played both ways. There were no gyrations in the end zone after a TD. If you mouthed off to an official you were out of the game. A celebration was after the game with a coke, and then you limped home from the stadium with a couple of your fellow players, unless you were lucky enough to have a girlfriend with the family car. I remember getting a bloody knuckle, and showing it to the line coach---his response was, "rub it in the dirt, and get back in the game".....Now that was football.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 5:43 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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REAL football

Damn right. And there was a time when NFL players would light up a smoke on the sideline during halftime and then get back out there and play both sides for another half.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 42 weeks ago, 3:03 PM

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It was back before all the pads and hard helmets.

My dad also played rough neck ball when we were kids, that and he drove dirt track. Grand Dad had this old car that he drove and gave it to my dad when he turned 16 to drive. Wasn't street legal by any means, but that didn't stop him.

We were talking last night after the IPSC match, about 20 - 30 of us all go to dinner after shooting.

The ages span from 15 - late 70's for the shooters and a couple of guys in their early 80's always go to dinner with us. Most of us are Veterans and allot are also retired Police. We were talking about the changes since we were kids.

The youngest ones at the tables were looking at us and not saying much. Except asking questions about different things they could not understand, like a Nickel Coke and such.

Everything, has changed.

Ed remembered when he first worked in the new Computer Room at his Department with all the punch cards, and how he used to have to de-bug the computers. Cleaning out all the Moths and things that were attracted to the heat, lights and paper fibers inside the computer that took up the whole dang room. LOL

So much is lost when change comes about and what is replaced is not recorded and held onto.

For the life of me, I can not see where Change is always the best thing.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
2 years 42 weeks ago, 4:08 PM

LLE

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always the best thing, and I think that's because some change does not result in "improvement", even though it looked like it would. Even as a young boy, I was sensitive to that kind of happenstance.[It is related to my posting on how to solve problems right the first time].
I remember we had an electric trolley system throughout my home town, out to the outskirts. I loved that trolley system. You could go just about everywhere for 5 cents; and it was clean and fun. The power generation station was far away and did not pollute the air. But sometime before the start of WW II, the natives were getting restless. Automobile ownership was accelerating, and drivers were complaining about the tracks causing rough driving and tearing up their tires, and unsightly, scarey overhead wires, plus always having the trolleycars getting in the way of normal traffic. So, the transit company transitioned to busses. No more clang clang clang goes the trolley. No more tracks in the streets. No more unsightly and scarey overhead wires. Now we had, noisey, smokey behemoths that were not as comfortable or clean and seemingly not as efficient., and they got in the way of traffic just as much as the trolleys. The student fare went up to 7 cents, and then to 10 cents, when gas rationing came in. There were many who lamented the loss of the old trolleys.............. That change certainly did not represent an improvement for most of my hometown folks. I'm certain events like that happen all the time.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 5:46 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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IMO

Change sux. There are exceptions, but usually change equates to negative experiences in my experience.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:08 PM

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I like change

Computers are better than telegraphs. Calculators are better than abacus. A Republic is better than being a British colony.

My experiences are polar to that of my esteemed colleague Saint J.M. Browning. Mostly positive changes I can think of with change.
I enjoy modern sports way more than yesteryear. It would be very difficult for someone to convince me that the players of the 1960's, '70's, '80's, or even most of the '90's NFL could compete with the players of today. Technology and nutrition have given us medical break throughs that have changed the way the game is played and televised. Instead of 65,000 people being able to watch the bowl that super, millions have access. I would say that is good change.

I think it is arrogant to say that football of the past is better because the player was asked to play on defense, offense, and special teams. Specialization creates superior performance. The specialized player will always out shine the general. You only have to look on the field to see the evidence.

But that is just my opinion.

flame on

clint

p.s. one more good thing to change: underwear

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:19 PM

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because I don't give a shit (basketball and baseball included) but NASCAR of yesteryear is by far better than the 'cookie cutter' shit we see today (yes I am a 'redneck')....I long for the days of MOPAR's 426 HEMI and FOMOCO's 427 SOHC motors and cars that you could identify at the local (your brand here)______________ dealership........"Run what 'ya brung"....now that's racing.

Hamp

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:25 PM

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NASCAR

Hamp,
I do not follow the soap opera that is NASCAR (cheap shot i apologize!!), but it seems to me that if all the cars were the same, it would be up to the driver. With minimal knowledge, the "cookie cutters" represent my comment, and thus the change toward the identical car moves the competition to the driver/team rather than the manufacturer. Of course I could be typing out of my ass...

I agree it is boring as an observer of drivers that only know how to turn left to watch the same car pass by at 200 mph, I will give you that...

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:35 PM

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No cheap shot Clint,

I don't follow NASCAR either, for the very reason I stated, run what 'ya brung is my opinion of racing, anything less than that is a circus. When I run out at MMP, I am running against people that may or may not have a superior vehicle to my own, it's part of the challenge.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:39 PM

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Hamp and his MMP

That sounds more fun to me, I actually enjoy some motor sports, NASCAR is just not one of them...

clint

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2 years 42 weeks ago, 7:02 PM

HampsterW

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Clint, V-8 super

cars is where it's at, those Aussies have it figured out (albeit somewhat cookie cutter), shit! the wheels fall off sometimes, it's fucking fun!

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 41 weeks ago, 9:33 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Change

I should have qualified a particular about me. My view changes on my mood. Yesterday I was having a bad day. Therefore change is bad. Other days when things are going better I become much more positive and optimistic. Similar to Doc Scurlock's peyote "visions". <-- Young Guns reference.

Maybe I'm manic depressive?

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 41 weeks ago, 10:05 AM

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they can't see you

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
2 years 41 weeks ago, 10:43 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Did you see

the size of that goldurned cock-a-doodle-doo?

Great stuff.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
2 years 41 weeks ago, 5:40 PM

LLE

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you are clearly talking opinion rather than fact, as regards the two different games. Indeed, some of your logic appears quite specious. If you have never played football, whether the old version or the present version, I fail to see fact in what you say. If you have played, I bet it was not the old game. Specialization COULD create superior performance, if we have an operational definition of the term "superior". But the fact is, such a comparison of the old vs the "new" kind of football is similar to apples and oranges. More especially, if the arguer's value system does not or cannot understand or even revere the characteristic challenges of the "old" original game, then the extoling of the "new" version rings hollow.
I would not say, having played and coached the "new" vs the old versions, that one is better than the other. The challenges are/were generally different, and my opinion is that the old game was more challenging. To turn it around, a little bit, for example, I would love to see a present day all-american, superb, 310 pound physical specimen offensive tackle, try to play line backer on defense. It would not work well, no matter how much of a physical specimen he was. His development and continued training would probably obviate the ability. Yet, that is exactly what the old game demanded, in many different combinations. I can attest from direct observation of a certain west coast running back [ all american and Rose Bowl MVP] a perfect example of such versatility---certainly not the exception on his team or for players on many other teams for that matter-----he shared records for tackles and interceptions. He was my cousin.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 41 weeks ago, 6:57 PM

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I love it when people tell someone their post is based on opinion and not fact, then back that statement up with their own specious observations.
You mentioned that your cousin was a running back that held records for tackles and interceptions. If I was his coach, based on the information you presented to me, he would play defense, I am guessing strong safety in a cover two or cover three scenario. That would open up a spot on the offense for someone who held records in yards per carry and touch downs, which reflects better what the offense on a football field is supposed to do, score touchdowns.
There is an evolution to all things, it comes from innovation and forward thinking. I am not up to speed on how the "old" players spent their time on the football field, but it would be interesting to see if the example of a lineman going to a linebacker position is a valid comparison. It seems more "logical" that an offensive lineman would play opposite his position which would be defensive line, but then I could just be talking more of that opinion. I would opine that a modern offensive lineman could play defensive line, but the specialized player on the defensive line would outshine him, and then we are back to the argument of placing the best player for the position. Can players hybrid themselves in the high speed arena of modern football, I think they can, but it would hurt the team. Having a run stopper specialized defensive lineman in on 3rd and 3 makes more sense than a pass rusher, or an offensive lineman who specializes in pass blocking.
I will not argue your nostalgia, as it is based on experience and emotion. Something I will never assume to know about someone else. Was it fun to watch sports where the athletes had a different role? Yes it was, that goes back to your statement about the arguer's value system. But personal enjoyment does not change the way sports are played today. I understand it would be impossible to gather empirical evidence to back one side or the other, but it is my OPINION that modern athletes are superior at their positions compared to previous players.

clint

p.s. How much would you be willing to bet which game of football I played, if any?

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
2 years 41 weeks ago, 9:08 PM

LLE

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I think you may have missed the point on my cousin. He was a running back [at the time referred to as half back and also played quarter back] and was rated all-american and Rose Bowl MVP performing as such, and has rushing records at his college. BUT ALSO, playing both ways he achieved defensive stat records. That would be very hard to do in the present style of football. If you were his coach, you would have played him exactly as his coach played him, because that was the paradigm then. You would not have the offense/defense paradigm choice.

With respect to what defensive position an old style player might be assigned, you are generally correct. But that was not always the case. I went defensively from Tackle to End to middle LB during my HS days, and that was during a game, rather than just from game to game. Same during Freshman [college] football.

I think present day players are much better conditioned than way back when, but I doubt they are much better in terms of the distribution of sheer talent.

With respect to a bet--I am not certain what de minimis is on the internet. We might be under arrest--my guess is you for sure did not play either the Single Wing or the Short Punt formations!!

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 41 weeks ago, 10:28 AM

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less specious...hmmm

claiming one's argument is less specious during a debate that can not be quantified is arrogant.

according to dictionary.com:
spe·cious   [spee-shuhs] Show IPA
adjective
1. apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.
2. pleasing to the eye but deceptive.
3. Obsolete. pleasing to the eye; fair.

I did not miss the point of your cousin, I used the exact information you provided and made a judgement based on that. You did not mention his "other records". It seems to me that the story changes to defend your position.
You are correct, I did not play either style you mentioned, they did not fit the scheme of the players talent. There were other, dare I say better, formations for the players style of play. We were not stuck in the mind set of making everyone conform to a set of ideals, unless those ideals were the rules governed to us by the league, or preventing the opposition from scoring, and/or moving the football into the defenders end zone.
With the information you presented concerning antiquated football and whether or not I engaged in that play style would have to be quantified to see if your assumption was correct. I realize what I call old school football probably differs from your definition, and at this point it would be ridiculous to try and define it, as we would use the styles we played in high school and possibly beyond. With all the improvements to the game learned through trial and error, I doubt I used the exact style of play or coached the style of play you participated in. I was using the forward pass, not sure if you played before 1906 (ok, cheap shot, I apologize now).
I ask you to give me an example of a "jack of all trades" being superior to a specialist in identical fields.
I thought about it last night and came up empty, you are a wise man and perhaps my belief of specialization has blinded me to such anomalies.

clint

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2 years 41 weeks ago, 1:19 PM

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disisgenous.. To be clear: my cuz played at a large west coast university. He played both ways, and offensively played both halfback and later, mostly quarterback, and as far as I know, they played the single wing. Defensively, he played both LB and at times other defensive back positions because of his speed. His first two college years were learning experiences under great coaching and great players. He began to show some real talent in his junior year and in 1939, led his team to a national championship, leading the leam in rushing, scoring and total offense, and was elected to all conference honors. And while playing defense, almost led in tackles and int's. In the Rose Bowl, he led his team to a victory over a previously unbeaten and unscored upon eastern team, and he was named MVP.. Later, in the college all star game he was named MVP, also. I do not know for certain, but I believe that a player would have had to play both ways exceedingly well, to obtain MVP. That is the whole "story".
I think HE is an example of a "jack of all trades" player being superior because there is no present specialized player who can do that as well, in "identical fields".

Incidentally, I played, the short punt, single wing and straight T formations, and went both ways, and I never heard of line splits until my freshman college year.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 41 weeks ago, 2:16 PM

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difference of opinion

LLE,
I am curious who your cousin was; seeing there were co-MVP's in the 1939 Rose Bowl. I am assuming Al "The Antelope" Krueger. Is that correct? He sounded like a wonderful man.

By using your cousin as an example of a jack of all trades being proficient on offense and defense exemplifies greatness. Was he amazing, yes. Could he have been coached to greater things if he studied one position, I would argue yes, but that is where opinion comes to play.

How well was he able to transfer his offense/defense practice in the professional league?

clint
p.s. I tried to look up Mr. Krueger's records, but I was unable to due to incomplete archives.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
2 years 41 weeks ago, 4:01 PM

LLE

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and although he was drafted by Green Bay, he never played pro ball. He pursued a career in coaching, and also did part time officiating both for college and AFL games.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:09 PM

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LLE's trolly post

takes me aback.........I spent quite a lot of time in San Francisco when I was a kid with my Grandma, she grew up in Illinois and never drove a car, moved to San Fran in her twenties.....Anyhoo, public transportation was 'it' for her (and me), we rode buses, trollies and ferries to get where we needed to go, Fisherman's wharf, Market street, China town, Knob hill, out to Marin county on the ferry........Good times!

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2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:17 PM

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LLE's trolley post

I have never experienced the nostalgia that is trolley. I would be one of those people lobbying for the removal of the antiquated system. The automobile represented freedom. They could travel to more places than the trolley, which was confined to the track system. I wonder how many people would forgo the use of an automobile for public transportation, I also wonder if the trolley and then the bus systems were subsidized.

It is hard to argue nostalgia, and it is easy to reminisce like Hampster. But when it comes down to it, if you had the choice between driving an automobile and riding a trolley, which would you choose?

clint

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin & Hobbes)
2 years 41 weeks ago, 12:20 AM

LLE

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If I were living in my original home town, and the trolley system was as good, route wise as it was during the pre-war years, I would basically not need an automobile for local travel. And if, at the same time, the Greyhound bus system and the Lehigh Valley and Jersey Central RRs services were as good, I could pretty much get around to most places I needed to go, without an automobile.
But of course, those are anachronistic "ifs".

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
2 years 42 weeks ago, 6:29 PM

HampsterW

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would choose the trolley or bus etc, realistically an automobile is liability in San Fran, like New York, no parking, gridlock........Here in UT I would take the car, public transport sucks here, you will never get where you need to be in a timely fashion.

Change you can truly believe in comes from the barrel of a gun---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron Paul 2012----Vote the bastards out!---------------------------------
2 years 42 weeks ago, 7:39 PM

luckybychoice

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May 2009
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United States

should be in every city,from trolleys to bus to bicycle paths...and cars.Community connectivity and urban development require mass transit and sidewalks.Basically going back in time to when large cities had neighborhoods and everything you needed was within walking distance,and then that special time when you got on a trolley or bus to go "out".

as for San Francisco,i spent several years just south of Oakland and either driving a car or my Harley never proved to be a big problem in any area i went to,but i also like to go to Jack London square,grab the Ferry and go across the bay,grab the trolley and head to Golden Gate park,hit the Japanese tea garden,go on a city bus(or several connections) to The North side of the Golden Gate bridge,walk across that,grab another bus,back to pier 39,eat clam chowder in a sour dough bread bowl,catch the Ferry back to Jack London,jump in the car and head home.

oh yeah,.....fuck sports.

i tried being reasonable,i didn't like it, NRA LIFE MEMBER,USMC VETERAN

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