Forums / Gun Discussion / Twist Rate and Barrel length

3 years 8 weeks ago, 3:14 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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After reading tallguy's post on the M16 twist rate, I got to thinking about something that has been bothering me for a couple of years now. This is long winded, but please bear with me, because your help might solve this for another frustrated Dad trying to save some bucks on an appropriately sized rifle for their child.
A few years back, I bought my son a Rossi Trifecta youth model. It had a .22LR, .243 Win., and .410 shotgun barrels for a single shot, break open action.
I've got no complaint against the .22 or .410. But the .243 couldn't hit paper at 50 yards. My son is a good shot. The first time he fired a centerfire, it was an AR15 and he hit the bullseye @ 100 yds. open sights. No shit.
So when he gets his new rifle to the range and can't hit the paper I'm like "OK, hand it over" and I take a few shots. Nothing in the paper. I'm flabbergasted. I mounted the scope and laser bore-sighted it. I know it's not exact, but I should be able to get on paper @ 50yds.
So I have him try a few shots while I observe. The one I saw was way high and left. So I start adjusting the scope on this. It was like 60 clicks on the windage and 85 on the elevation. Have him shoot. Nothing. Give it some more clicks. Have him try again, and we see a hole at the bottom right corner of the target. So I'm thinking I over compensated, back it up the amount of clicks as is indicated by the distance on paper converted to MOA. Have him try again, sure this time he will plant one in the center ring at least. Nothing. We give up and go home. My poor son was so disappointed.
Later, when I'm thinking about it, I recall an article I read about the .243 and how it used to be the 6mm Win. But they didn't have the right twist rate for the barrels, so they corrected this and renamed the cartridge the .243 so people knew if they had the 6mm rifle, they had to use lighter bullets, but if they had the .243, they were OK.
We were shooting 100gr bullets, because they were cheap and I wanted to get my son deer hunting. So, to test this, I reset the scope, get the lightest bullet I could find (hornady 58gr.varmit ), and take it out and shoot it with these, Bam!, within 1" of the x. On another day, I further test my theory, I got those 58gr, some 80gr., and the remaining 100gr. The 58gr, no problem, 80 grain and the group opens, 100gr off the paper. Another test at very close range even showed that the 100gr bullets were keyholing. Bad. To the point they looked like they hit the paper sideways.
I was thinking it was a crappy twist rate and I was stuck with a trainer rifle shooting expensive ammo. I have since found that it has a 1:10 twist. Which should be good. So what did all my empirical research indicate? The only thing I can conclude is since the rifle is shorter, maybe the barrel length has something to do with it. Maybe, even though it does a turn after 10", it doesn't go through enough barrel to put a stable spin on it? What advise or knowledge on this do you have? Is it all just a coincidence and the rifle is just crap? Thank, y'all.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 8 weeks ago, 3:48 PM

tallguy007

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Saint

sounds like your son takes after you and hits it were it is so post to go :>) I'm sure what you found out is right it's sad the comp will make and sell any thing to make a buck or few.But your son will always remember that great time at the range with you.TY

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
3 years 8 weeks ago, 4:21 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Thanks TG

I appreciate that. One thing I forgot to mention. The barrel is 22". It's short, but no more than a carbine. I would think a 1:10 22" should be able to fire 100gr bullets. But the evidence says otherwise.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 8 weeks ago, 4:40 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Good weekend all

I'm out. It looks like a busy W/E, so if I don't get a chance to get back on, y'all have a good one.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 8 weeks ago, 4:49 PM

Ishootdaily

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c-ya!

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 8 weeks ago, 4:38 AM

TXLUCKYGUY

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.243

Accuracy International has offered some of their rifles in .243 for a while now.....the first ones I know of were 20" barrels, and now I think the AW/E is offered with a 24 or 26 inch barrel. They list all their .243 rifles as having a 1:10 twist rate.

The UK police use these, but I do not know what grain weight of bullet they issue.

I'd have a gunsmith actually measure the rifling to make sure it is the advertised twist.

3 years 7 weeks ago, 3:12 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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TLG

Good suggestion. I think I might. Then again, the thing was cheap as hell, so I might write off the .243 barrel and keep the .22 and .410. I was hoping my son could have something to pass to his son, but I guess I'll have to get something better.

Thanks again.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon
3 years 8 weeks ago, 9:38 AM

Ishootdaily

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I haven't done it yet but I'm getting one of the FP10's cut down to 17 inches and threaded for a can. It is a 1/10 twist and there should be no effect on mid range accuracy.

The 100 grain bullet should be fine at 50 yards in a 1/10 twist barrel. I'd definitly do as TXLG suggested and I would have them look at the barrel Crown also. If it is off the bullet could be thrown off coming out of the barrel. It isn't common but it does happen at the factory at times where the tool is not perfectly centered, seen this with rifles and pistols which ended up going back to the factory to be replaced (or re-crowned).

Shooting Times: Though the 6mm Remington's larger case capacity endeared it to handloaders, the .243 Winchester kicked its tail. The lackluster success of the 6mm Rem. can be directly attributed to its 1:12 twist rate that would not stabilize the 100-grain bullets deer hunters coveted. Heck, it didn't even do a good job of stabilizing Remington's 90-grain factory load.

Winchester's .243, however, had a 1:10 rate of twist, and it did a marvelous job of stabilizing 100-grain deer bullets as well as lighter varmint bullets. By the time Remington changed to a 1:9 twist rate, the damage was done. The .243 Win. dominated the 6mm market and still does to this day.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 7 weeks ago, 3:21 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Crown

Yeah, I should have thought about that. Thanks, ISD. BTW, I saw your ST quote and realized I made the same mistake I keep making. Confusion the story about the .244/6mm Rem to the .243 Win. Yeah, It was the .244 Rem that had problems and they renamed it the 6mm Rem. I've got a buddy that has a 6mm Rem, and he swears up and down that it is the greatest round in the history of ever.

"I don't think Hank done it this way" - Waylon

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