Forums / Gun Discussion / what does muzzle energy have to do with a gun?

5 years 27 weeks ago, 1:22 AM

raffycanlas

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i know muzzle energy and bullet velocity varies on bullets, but higher muzzle energy, higher power?

glock 30 with a 230 grain bullet gives 320 ft lbs

glock 21 with a 230 grain bullet gives 500 ft lbs

someone shed some light on me with this, just curious.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 27 weeks ago, 2:10 AM

runawaygun762

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raffy

Muzzle energy is kinetic energy expressed in ft/lbs. A bullet with higher energy has more energy to transfer into the target, which is why rifle rounds, although they may have less than half the mass of a handgun round, can cause so much more damage

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 27 weeks ago, 2:14 AM

LittleDragon

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ryo have been studying pistols alot recently, because know very little about them. my pops have 43 rifles in his collection. little brother has 5 now. ryo has one. but there is only one pistol in our house that belong to pops.

but muzzle energy is something that is part of the science of any firearm, rifle or pistol. longer barrels or shorter, different propellant and different propellant load in cartridge for weapon as well as weight of bullet all have to do with muzzle energy. you are moving a mass (the bullet) through the atmosphere by means of an explosive propulsion. a longer barrel allow more time for the explosion to propel the mass. this can be measured by electronic devices but can also be figured mathematically neh. the longer barrel of the glock 21 standard size is going to produce more energy at the muzzle than the shorter barrel of the glock 30. it also depend, as ryo learned this afternoon, on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet itself. if you need a simple explanation of how BC work, you can look it up in Wikipedia. they have a very easy to understand article on ballistic coefficient. if the glock 21 and the glock 30 are firing the exact same round and everything else being equal then the real difference is the longer barrel of the glock 21. higher muzzle energy = higher power is a relative idea in math. that depend on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. it possible to have a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient that is propelled by a lower muzzle velocity to have more striking power at a given range than a bullet with a lower ballistic coefficient that is propelled by a higher muzzle velocity.
now this is all relative to how well ryo study is going. this is new to ryo and am just now taking up this study. you would most likely be better off with an answer from one of the real expert people at Gunslot. ryo might have some of this wrong. would recommend you contact people like greasypaws chan, ebear chan, clint chan, nitris san, runawaygun san, victor chan, or reaper chan or LLE san. one of them will know much more about this that ryo. am just trying to get you started, but once you ask a question like this you have taken first step on a long journey into the discovery of the sciences of weaponry. this is something that capture ryo's imagination and enjoy very much. hope you will too.

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 27 weeks ago, 3:01 AM

LLE

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is you can take almost any bullet, and match it to a set of 1 to 1 pictures on a chart, and the best match will give you a set of simple math calculations to use to estimate the ballistic coefficient of your bullet. I am far from an expert!!

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 27 weeks ago, 3:08 AM

runawaygun762

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I haven't slept in over 36 hours, so maybe I'm just not all there, but I thought I posted a comment recently about Ballistic Coefficient only being a description of how well a bullet moves through the air. Have I?

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 27 weeks ago, 3:20 AM

LittleDragon

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ryo is pretty good spotter. before was able to shoot rifle, to compensate ryo learn from my grandpa and my pops about spotting for shooter. one of the many tool ryo have now is a program call Patagonia. this program have almost all known bullet and their ballistic coefficient listed on charts in the program and before yesterday this was all ryo really knew about it. but am involve in a project with other members at Gunslot and needed to understand more about ballistic coefficients. so after swim practice and lunch ryo and my little brother got on the internet and google this and it just amazing how much stuff there is out there about this. but think am beginning to get some little bit of understanding about how the math work. it not really that hard. more of simple algebra and trig and analytical geometry than anything else. nothing really hard like calculus or non linear algebra. intelligent man like you should not have any trouble understanding how to do your own ballistic coefficient neh.

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 27 weeks ago, 3:38 AM

charley9toe

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runaway

yes, you did post an item re;ballistics energy.

(You have to look behind all of that outer space stuff)
5 years 27 weeks ago, 8:02 AM

LittleDragon

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this whole new study for self and sure don't want to tell a great friend like raffy chan something wrong. could you check the answer ryo gave up above and see if ryo make any mistake dozo. (word mean please)

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 27 weeks ago, 10:09 AM

Nitris

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on a short note muzzle energy is kinetic energy expressed in ft/lbs as runaway said.

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 27 weeks ago, 10:19 AM

LittleDragon

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yes, this is something else ryo have learn about, that the kinetic energy is expressed in ft/lbs. also ryo have double check everything again this morning and pretty sure that got everything right.

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 27 weeks ago, 3:20 PM

raffycanlas

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if the 40 is fired from a longer barrel right? im wayy to dumb for this lol, what can i say, im just a farmer, oh and a mall cop too.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 27 weeks ago, 4:21 PM

LittleDragon

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ryo was talking about if both were same caliber like Glock 21 in .45 and Glock 30 also in .45 caliber too. have to work out the math or look up in charts and find for .40 s&w vs a .45 acp neh

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 27 weeks ago, 4:31 PM

Nitris

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you covered the basics. Good job.

Ron Paul 2012 III
5 years 27 weeks ago, 5:04 PM

LittleDragon

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ryo really needed somebody with your caliber of expertise to check cause some of this is very new to ryo neh. not want to make complete fool out of self neh. but most especially wanted to help good friend raffy chan. thank you again.

Your friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
4 years 5 weeks ago, 12:30 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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M/E

M/E has little direct correlation to wounding effect in firearms. Knives and arrows have little M/E compared to rifle bullets but are efficient at wounding humans and other large animals.

M/E, velocity, energy....all these things can be 'converted' (read 'wasted') into heat and other things that do not contribute to terminal effect/wounding ability.

Only bullets that predictably and desirably deform/fail "convert" muzzle energy into wounding effect. A non-expanding, straight-trajectory bullet driven to a very high velocity is a much less efficient wounding projectile than a bullet driven to any appropriate velocity where fragmentation, expansion, tumbling etc. are predictable and suit the mission requirements. This is especially true when directed towards elastic tissues like blood vessels, heart, muscle, arteries, etc.

If memory serves Elmer Keith did some early notable work using solid/FMJ/non-deforming rifle rounds; even at his favorite velocities (he was a 'Magnum' kinda man) the results on game were nothing special.

A good example is the 1980s Thunderzap and Equalloy .38 sp loads....both used very lightweight bullets driven at very high velocities (plastic HP and aluminum SWC, respectively, approaching 2000fps from some platforms) but were lousy performers in actual shootings compared to 'vanilla' .38sp loads using conventional bullets driven at standard velocities. The TZAP would typically penetrate no more than a couple of inches on live targets, and the Eq simply drilled a hole. Both had hype, production and purchase costs, and negative aspects far outweighing their very high-for-cartridge velocities.

Raffy, assuming he bullet in your original question is designed to perform within that 'velocity window', then the results from the G21 won't look much different than from the G30.

4 years 5 weeks ago, 3:23 PM

TXLUCKYGUY

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FMJs

A peanut-gallery coworker read this post over rmy shoulder and smarted off about FMJ rifle bullets that do indeed have good terminal effect.....after a short counseling session he understands his error in reading my post, but I decided that he can't be the only one misreading me.

Many modern FMJ rifle bullets do indeed fragment/deform/upset, providing predictably good wounding effect. The M193 55gr boattail FMJ *w/cannelure* relies on fragmentation along with a good-sized temp stretch cavity to produce heavy wounding effect for such a small caliber (5.56). This is predicated by it being fired from a suitable barrel....the tempcav and frag we all know and love from a 20" barrel doesn't look nearly as good when it comes out of a 10" USN upper or an HK53. A solid copper .223 bullet fired at the same velocity does not frag and generally produces less wounding effect. You'll also find the cannelure as an integral bullet feature in non-military AR15 loads that have popular following for good wounding effect...the 64gr Winchester PowerPoint (they sometimes list is as a "knurl") and the Hornady TAP T2 75gr.

At the other end of the spectrum, take a look at the 123gr 7.62x39R FMJ. Many types do yaw/"tumble" predictably in tissue but do not provide the kind of wound that a similar 7.62x39mmR load would when using a Hornady V-Max, Barnes-X or other hunting bullet. Lots of 7.62x39mmR ammo have m/E that is way out of proportion to it's ability to wound.

Google Image search "Fackler" and you'll find several clear illustrations of typical service rifle wound profiles, and also some from handguns, shotguns, etc. Some of disappointing, others are "UGH I hope I never get shot with THAT".

4 years 5 weeks ago, 12:48 AM

runawaygun762

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Unlike most handguns rounds, centerfire rifle bullets have enough energy that they can disrupt or damage tissue without directly impacting it. The type of tissue that is most affected are the organs that are composed primarily of water and have low elasticity. Liver, spleen, kidneys, things like that. Because water doesn't compress, some of the .30 caliber and above rounds can actually rupture these organs without touching them, although that's far from being a certainty.

Rifle rounds are less dependent on bullet type for terminal effects because even if they are FMJ rounds that pass through without transferring all their energy, they have the potential to transfer enough energy to cause damage.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 12:49 AM

runawaygun762

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from Little Dragon. I was starting to miss the little zipperhead, ka?

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:07 AM

smithw45

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what post?

what post?

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:11 AM

runawaygun762

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These few posts here.

He doesn't have anything new, I just saw these comments and got all nostalgic for the little fucker. "Oh no, it's Godzirra!!! He's going to eat all of our flied lice!!"

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:15 AM

smithw45

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lol ok ive been gone for a while, think im out of the circle on this

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:24 AM

runawaygun762

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has been for quite a while

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:32 AM

smithw45

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runawaygun

threw you a message

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:34 AM

runawaygun762

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I didn't get it.

What the hell. Maybe it's been so long since I had a PM that the system says fuck me.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:38 AM

smithw45

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nope my bad forgot how to send em, fixed it now....i think

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:42 AM

runawaygun762

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You sexy little man. Wait. What? Nevermind, just go with it.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:50 AM

smithw45

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hey my pic is from the chest up, you have no idea hop lil i am.....shit i didnt say that right

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...
4 years 5 weeks ago, 1:55 AM

runawaygun762

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to keep a pretty girl like the one in the picture. Unless she has a heart of gold. Or you can lick your own eyebrows. Personally, I have a 12 inch tongue and the ability to breathe through my ears, so I keep 'em happy even though I nearly shaved my straight pubic hair off. The only thing that saved it was that I pissed out of it and realized it wasn't a pube.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
4 years 5 weeks ago, 2:01 AM

smithw45

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lmao im not sure how to answer that. id say shes mostly got the gold thing going...although i do have an 11 inch penis..... around think about it!!! lol

we've got you surrounded.... ... Smith... Wesson and me...

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