As an open question, as the title says, when do you consider ending a life an appropriate action?
when, and ONLY when; you feel that the threat of death or serious injury to you or anyone around you is emminant; as a last resort to subdue/remove, or eliminate the threat from your situation.
almost any other use of deadly force would certainly, or at least quite possibly be a chargeable offense on your part.
disclaimer: in no way by my opinions am i endorsing anyones use of lethal force.
I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon, which I do at ALL times, where it is legal and allowed.
You are taught in your classes for your license about these things.
The last thing any of us want to do is to take a human life.
You have to decide in that micro second of time, Is my or someone elses life in immenent danger of deadly harm? Then and only then would I shoot. You are taught to place 2 center mass shots, which should end the danger to you or others.
First option is to get away from the situation safely without drawing or showing them my weapon. If they want my wallet, they will get it. I will throw it as far away from me as possible.
I and my wife have an evacuation plan in our home. I have a semi safe room in the master bedroom, which has a secure deadbolt lock, phone, electricity, extra guns and ammo.
I practice at the range and am very proficient and very quick. I am prepared mentally to take another life in a heartbeat, if that is what it takes to protect myself or family.
Sam is hitting it on the head- preparedness. If you are prepared to evade the attack both physically and mentally you may not need to use deadly force. At least you have the final option should your loved ones or yourself be in a life or death position.
I have thought about this myself many times being a CCW holder. When I carry I have that resonsibility to "know" when it may be time to draw and defend. I say defend because that is what I believe would what constitutes my actions. There are others in here that are in the military that have different circumstances that dictate when and why. As for me it would be in the defense of those that are threatened around me such as friends, family, or somebody that was themselves defenseless. I hope that day never comes but if it does I play the "what if game" and realize that I better be damn sure of whats happening around me. Good question, should generate alot of discussion I hope. I'm not saying I'm getting tired of looking at boobs, but something a little more cerebrul would be nice.
a bit off topic but i will tell it anyway.my buddies gun shop is in a rural area near my home.i spend alot of time there talking politics and learning about guns and gunsmithing.after a little while i had been hanging out there,the owner and his employee (when no one else was there)showed me where the shop defense guns are at.i can freely walk behind counters and around the shop since i sometimes answer phones and assist customers.the owners felt like since i am there so much i should know where things are at.i know where the shotgun loaded with buckshot,the 1911A1 with hollow points,the .38 revolver,the .44 mag model 29,and the emergency button all are at.now i and they realize that someone would have to be real stupid to try to hold up a gunshop but there has been a few times in the last couple of years that strange people have been in the shop.i am one of those kind of people that get weird vibes about things,when i get the vibes i pay attention.a few times when i have been at the shop and strange looking people have walked in i immediately have gotten up out of my chair and walked around behind the counter(which has a half inch plate steel layer between plywood!)and stood by the shotgun!the owner and his employee have seen me do this a few times and when i do it they take heed.in fact last year,a couple of young punks robbed the local gas station,then stopped in at the gun shop.i was there and got that weird vibe and walked behind the counter and grabbed the shotgun!they asked about handguns for sale and the owner saw me standing where i was and told them "nope'we aint got any for sale"they left and were later arrested for robbery after they shot some guy in a quik e mart about 15 minutes from us.i ask myself to this day"would i have fired the weapon?"damn right i would have!
Since this is generating discussion, I'll throw my bit in.
I have a bias against ending human lives, but I understand the practicality of being able to do so. I will not, however, draw a gun unless I intend to do business. Simply pulling one out and waving it around is an excellent way to turn a casual mugger into a potential murderer if you don't back up pulling the gun out to begin with.
I don't personally carry a firearm outside of the home, nor am I legally allowed to do so.
Where do you live that you are not allowed to have a firearm outside your home? I use to live in Ca. and always had a gun with me, it was usually a rifle as I grew up on a ranch and would shoot coyotes out of our fields. As far as I know all states allow hunting and as long as your gun is not concealed without a permit you should be ok.
do unto others before they have a chance to do to me. this is not a decision i have time to think about. i cannot second guess. i can not fear the outcome. my well being and the welfare of those i am charged to protect depends, no, demands that i resolve these issues before i take up arms thus ensuring that when/if a situation arises, my head is clear and my actions are motivated by self-preservation and the preservation of life under my care. when did our forefathers decide it was "right" to take up arms against others? when the liberty and freedom - the LIFE - they chose in this "land of the free" was threatened. The second amendment not only gives me the right to do this but charges me to uphold its very meaning by doing so.
and an excellent example that each of us needs to ready himself/herself philosophically, morally, value-system-wise and practically. If you are "carrying", you need to have thought it out and be able to articulate it to yourself, as the Doctor has. You also need to be knowledgeable of what is almost sure to follow, if you had to fire.
all...I think everyone on this site would agree. If there is anybody who is looking forward to taking a life...then there is a huge problem. However, you must be trained in proper procedures and be AWARE...a state of awareness is a huge key, you will likely have only a short time to react.
I say most murders and violent assault are precipitated by strange and funny looks. Following that logic, kill someone if they look at you funny. I'm kidding of course, but there haven't been any posts by the online rambos yet, so I figure I'd take care of it first.
If somebody is threatening me or my family, they are going to meet whomever they prey to. Also if I observe some innocent being victimized same deal someone is getting laid down to rest.
The thing no one has mentioned is if the time comes when someone comes for our guns. I personally am at a split descision on this issue, I do not want a fire fight with my family there. They may take some but not all of them,and after the fact some very bad things may happen.
if my house got broken into by a robber, id hold him at gun point, and if he disobeys just one little thing i say, he will be mailed to jesus in pieces, but if there is more than one assailant, i would immediately use deadly force, via shotgun or sick my rottweiler on em.
You should not think of taking a life unless your own life or that of someone else is in danger. States vary in their laws, so you can justify shooting someone in some states better than others. Those with 'Castle Laws' allow the homeowner more leeway, but some states have a 'Duty to Retreat' law which compels you to avoid a confrontation if you possibly can. So if there's an open doorway you could have run out of and you chose to take on a thief instead, you could be the one going to jail.
I think one of the first things anyone who decides to own a gun for self-defense should do is become very familiar with the state laws in effect where you live and plan accordingly. I know you can always say, "I thought he had a gun," but if cops find you shot an unarmed sixteen year old carrying a stereo out of the house, that's not going to be much of a defense. I also think it's a good idea to pay special attention to any incidents that happen in your city or county to see which way law enforcement and prosecutors tend to go. Some prosecutors leap all over any gun incident; some tend to be more circumspect and lean oward self-defense. It's a real crap shoot out there. I know it sucks, but it's a reality we have to consider.
I know a lot of people are of the opinion that they are excellent shots. But another issue is really knowing yourself and how you will react. Frontsight (in Nevada) teaches you that you are only half as good in a real gun battle as you are on the range. Some of you have already been in a true 'fight or flight' situation and some of you have not. Until you have experienced an incident like this, you won't know what you will really do. When an 'adrenalin dump' hits you your physiology changes instantly. You have more energy than you know what to do with. It can be debilitating. You have to 'think through' the adrenalin to keep control of your own body. One of the things that happens is that the energy goes to your arms and legs (fight or flight) and away from your brain. It takes all your concentration to think steadily and do what is necessary, especially if part of what you have to do is protect someone else who may not be reacting in the manner you would hope. The thing is, you don't have a lot of time to consider, so you'd best be prepared ahead of time by thinking through various scenarios. Then you can let your training 'take over' part of the responsibility--leaving you to concentrate on assessment.
I know we've all been frightened a time or two in our lives, but a true adrenalin dump is way beyond being startled. Happened to me last year for the first time (and I'm old). Now I know, and I'm really glad to have gone through the experience because it taught me a lot. I don't think reading about it is enough. You have to have it happen to you before you really understand what the issue is.
This is the best advice you could get. At Front Sight--they do their best to wear you down, and degrade your thinking ability, and induce anxiety, before you go through the "shooting house". If you play the game correctly, and self-induce a good bit of anxiety because of the potential bad guys, you will at least get some feel for the adrenalin taking over. As I came to one corner and started to disect the pie, I caught a quick glance at a BG holding a female hostage in such a way that I had ONLY a head shot to take him out. I ducked back and stopped dead in my tracks, and the instructor asked why I was hesitating. I said, "I can't take that shot". He said, if you don't have the confidence to take that shot, you need to go back thru the first three days of the course. Let me tell you--this is a desperate situation--that hostage is probably going to die, and you may also". [There you have it-- a lot more pressure, and besides that, he pissed me off].
I came out from behind the cover, and put a 40S&W right thru the BG's eye, on the side opposite the hostage's head. BG was pronounced instantaneously dead, but I was shaking badly for awhile!!
being properly self-serving, after the fact: You NEVER considered "killing" anyone. Your purpose was to stop someone/anyone from causing great harm/injury or possibly death to you, family members, friends or persons so-threatened and unable to defend themselves. If, in the process of such a defense, the assailant was killed, that was "regretable". [but privately, not very regretable].
if you pull your weapon out shoot to kill not to wound!!!!!or trust me ,you will get sued.
In other words--DO NOT TELL ANYONE you "shot to kill" or you will probably be convicted of the violation of Some Crime in that location
my point was simply put, 'DON'T START ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO FINISH" TOO MANY WANNA BE'S OUT THERE
when youre pushed, killing is as easy as breathing.
when someone cuts in line at the register when i am on a beer run!
when i asked for no pickles on my Angry Whopper and got them!!!!!
when and only when im under the impression that I and/or my family is in danger i will consider killing but as you all know by now i never want to kill someone again but will if i have no choice.
When all lesser means have failed or are not reasonable. The courts will judge you based on what a reasonable person with similar experience and training would do given the same situation. The "I thought he had a gun" defense will work if you can articulate exactly what you experienced. If the sixteen year-old kid you just shot only had a VCR, that's too bad for him if you can articulate that you believed he had a weapon. Who you are will make a difference, too. A seventy year-old woman will have more leeway in shooting a sixteen year-old kid armed with a broom handle than a 45 year-old less-lethal self defense SWAT commando cool guy. This falls under the litmus test of what a reasonable person would do. The key here, as I have stated before, is to use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the threat.
Only criminals are allowed to carry firearms outside their residence here in California, and if you do carry a firearm it has to be locked where it will be too late to get to it if you should ever need it.
over the infringement of their Constitutional Rights provided for in the 2nd Ammendment. Or move like I did to Arizona. All legal born citizens of California who are not crooks should move out of California and let it sink into the quagmire of Socialism/Communism/Hollywoodism that it has become and deserves.
all it needs is 10 b-52 bombers flying over it and to do what it does best...bomb and devastate california....
And you guys are gonna call it a loss because no one is willing to fight for our freedoms like our forefathers had the balls to do.
must be nice to be the 5th largest economy at this time, but hey, good for yall.
You conveniently side stepped the question in the other post
listen pal, im not gonna defend some state where the laws protect the criminals.
I'll ask once more... what happens when these problems come to your great state. what makes Tennessee any different once all the Californians run there? Are you forgetting who pays the fuckers to make these laws? its all those people who are running to your state.
Come on now. Thats sheep talk up there... "Just run to another state"
never gave you any in the first place, let the people here say what they want to say(including me) about this state or that, its still a free country, even in california, im pretty sure.
Im gonna step off you a bit man and I appologise, but I love my country and I really hate that people have given up on California. I want Californians to not give up. I talk to some one new just about everyday, I get there opinions and from what I gather, most have lost the will to fight. Its not the the fact that they have different opinions about gun rights, its the fact that so many have just given up. PLEASE COME BACK CALIFORNIANS AND HELP ME FIGHT!!!!
hey its not you i hate, but you have to understand how americans who dont live in california feels, and i apologize if i degraded where you came from because i dont want people to say that about the south, its where i am and where i want to be thats why, like i said i fight for all the right reasons and i just dont know about california anymore.
California is where most of the crime comes from..........
The state with the most gun laws has one of the highest crime rates...wtf?
hmmmmmm I wonder why? Because gun laws don't work!
because criminals dont follow laws lol, new york has a lot of gun laws but their crime rate is high too. here in tennessee(overton county), most of the crimes involve knife wielding crackheads, now lets see, ummm, a knife wielding crackhead charging at me at about 10 mph, i whip out my g21sf or g19 in a wink of an eye, one shot at the chest, yep. or a crackhead needing money so he decides to trespass in my home, i caught him with my 12 gauge, he will be sent to whomever he prays to in pieces.
I guess the difference between our stance (geographically) is that I have to call 911 and say things like "Ive called the police, Im scared, you need to get out of my house my house or I will shoot" before I kill the bastard that's stupid enough to break in, and then I have to defend myself in court.
If this ever happens i hope the song "What a Wonderfull World" is playing in the backround of the 911 call.
then call the cops hahaha
The fawkin liberals in the courtroom wont tho... they start saying things like... "We saw your posts on gunslot.com and we know your stance on situations like these." and I think to myself.... what a wonderful world
The People's Republic of Kalifornia, I say this: Find out if the police in your area have a reserve officer's program. If not, get to know the police administrators in your area on a personal basis. Become known. Here's the deal with police departments; If civilians get the ability to carry weapons outside their home, the police lose the ability to monopolize the armed security jobs. The police organizations (Unions and FOP) don't want their members to lose the ability to moonlight. Cops who truly care about the safety of the populace would love more armed citizens. This is what I've been saying. All these anti-gun groups know the facts about more armed citizens making for a safer environment. They don't want that. They don't want people to realize they are not needed. They don't want citizens to have the power.