Forums / Political & Legal / At what point do you resist with force?

5 years 47 weeks ago, 11:46 PM

runawaygun762

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I am not trying to incite a rebellion, I am not advocatig the violent overthrow of the United States government, and I am not saying we should attack law enforcement. Now that I have made that clear, on to the discussion. If you are not committing a crime, and the dor to your home comes crashing inward with people yelling "Police! Get down!" and you are near a weapon (I have one in nearly every room of the house), do you fight? I realize of course that the vast majority of home invasion robberies are perpetrated against rival drug dealers and very few citizens suffer these assaults, and if it does occur, the likelihood of the bad guys impersonating cops is very low. However, if I know I am committing no crime and there is no reason for police to be conducting a no-knock warrant search of my house, do I assume they are police and give up, or do I fight to the death to defend my family? My particular situation makes recognition fairly easy, as I have good visibility of the road leading to my house and am not likely to be taken by srprise with all the dogs in my area. But for those in urban areas or who may not see the intruders' initial approach, at what point do you fight? Taking it a step further, if I know they are police, and I know I have committed no crime, do I fight back? At what point do you resist government intrusions with force? This is not an issue I am concerned with, it is intended to start a discussion only. I am not looking to put together an anti-gummint neighborhood watch, and I am not planning to shoot down any black helicopters.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 47 weeks ago, 12:46 AM

fordvg

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My wife was going to be a police officer out in California when she was younger. They told her, if the police comes into your home without a warrent or does not yell police you have the right to defend yourself and your family. If they do not knock and yell police, then I'm fighting.

"WAR IS A RACKET, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for the Bankers." Major-General Smedley Darlington Butler USMC Ret. 2 time Medal of Honor winner.
5 years 47 weeks ago, 1:52 AM

Anonymous

there all kind of court case precidents concerning this scenario.i dont give a flying shit who you are if you are coming thru my front door without announcing who you are,i hope you like the taste of lead!we ,in the greasypaws household have what i call a stratdef plan.strategic defense for the less informed.everyone in the house has a pre-determined set up point with selected weapons.if i am defending the front door you get buckshot in your ass who knows what else may be behind the door!

5 years 47 weeks ago, 2:44 AM

Dr.angusmd21

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a side note

i followed a case a few years back where bail bondsmen broke down the wrong door. the homeowner went for his gun and they shot him dead. they were cleared of wrong doing even though it was THE WRONG ADDRESS. a civil suit was filed but i lost track of the case.

2850 fps
5 years 47 weeks ago, 1:56 PM

runawaygun762

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Civil Suit?

I cannot imagine suing someone for killing a family member of mine. Eye for an eye is still the norm for some of us.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 47 weeks ago, 2:05 PM

ssrs10

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runaway

I would say I would attempt to assess the situation as best as posible and then make a decision based upon this. After all you can be arrested for a crime you did not commit. But you can also go to jail for a very long time for committing one which could have been prevented through the use of good judgement. That being said, if I knew I was committing no crime I would likely go peaceably.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses
5 years 44 weeks ago, 4:29 AM

runawaygun762

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What is the difference between resisting against an unlawful police intrusion and resisting against an invasion by a hostile force? If you give up your privacy, dignity, and maybe liberty and chalk it up to a mistaken address or hope the police will realize their mistake, aren't you putting too much faith in the government? Hopefully the abuses of power by federal law enforcement we saw in the 90's will not repeat themselves, but if they do, what if you become a direct victim of them? Would you accept having your pregnant wife shoved against a wall, causing her to miscarry? Or having fellow Americans gassed, shot in the head, or burned to death over a 200 dollar tax issue? My ultimate question is do we have a point at which things have gone too far? I have been pondering this since well before the last election, so it's not the rantings of a disgruntled right-wing whack job. Well, I am a right-wing whack job, but that's not the point.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 44 weeks ago, 11:48 PM

ssrs10

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runaway

I suppose it would depend on the severity of the moment. There are far to many scenarios and paths which need to align before a decision like this can be made....but like Raffy stated below....I think if someone were to enter my home without my consent and I became immediately aware I would crouch in a gaurded position and demand that they identify themselves, ask for their badges to be thrown in my general diection and if anything came within ten feet of me which was living flesh other than my own or loved ones it would be blown away until I had sufficient evidence of the intruders id. (I live in a two story so likely scenerio is that they wouldn't make it up the stairs before I knew they were inside.) But when it all comes down to it NO ONE has the right to enter a persons personal property without that persons implicit agreement, I don't care who they are.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses
5 years 44 weeks ago, 10:07 AM

Pkato

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possible...as for me, I don't think this is a realistic scenario. While I agree with you, that you have every right to worry about this and make a plan to defend against it. I think it is very very unlikely to happen to someone who is not breaking the law, living with their family, not planning to violently overthrow the govt, etc... Having some type of surveillance system with a recording device might be a good idea also, in case it does happen it could help sort out legal issues later on. Good question though, should cause plenty of different opinions to be posted.

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
5 years 44 weeks ago, 11:32 PM

runawaygun762

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Realistic scenario?

The Branch Davidians were not planning on overthrowing the government. Even if David Koresh were sleeping with underage girls and possessing machine guns without paying 200 dollars for them, is that worth what happened? Great way to protect those poor, innocent underage girls. Burn 'em alive. Or how about a trained FBI sniper shooting a woman through the head while she's holding her baby because her husband supposedly sold a gun with a stock that was too short. I won't even kill a fellow citizen for 200 dollars. Now I realize these events happened over a decade ago, and that is why I said hopefully these events don't happen again. But these events, as well as many other, less well-known events happened under a democratic president and Janet Reno as AG. We have a Democratic president and the new AG was under Reno. We'll see.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 44 weeks ago, 11:37 PM

raffycanlas

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fighting the police

if they dont knock and just barge in, i consider them criminals with badges, oink oink.

I'm just another damn yankee with a loaded gun looking for some fun!
5 years 44 weeks ago, 10:28 AM

Gunnin88

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Hard question

A guy that worked for one of our sister shops was shot and killed by the cops a few weeks back in Everett WA becuase of mistaken identity. The cops thought he was a robber, yet this guy was in his own home. He herd a ruccus grabbed his shotty crouched down in his hallway(actualy may have been winged by a cop in his back yard prior without warning unsure at this point). The cops kicked the door in, saw him there with a shotgun and shot the crap out of him and every room in the house (some 36 shots fired) the "cop kids" were fresh out of iraq and got a signing bonus to become everett police. I don't trust law enforcment in general. While some get in it for the right reasons most IMHO are douche bags with itchy trigger fingers. I persoaly keep a glock in reaching distance from my bed and a shotty a few steps away. If i see flashing lights I will certainly open the door unarmed if I don't whomever comes through that door has about 1/2 a secound to live while I determin if they belong there or not.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 44 weeks ago, 10:49 AM

ssrs10

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gunnin88

What's all this about the fellow in WA?? Why did they think he was a robber?

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses
5 years 44 weeks ago, 11:34 AM

Gunnin88

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SSR

I was trying to keep a long story short. Sorry.
He got a ride home from the bar at 2:00am and was having a Seahawks party the next day so he went out in his back yard to pull out his BBQ smoker deal and made a bit of a rucouse while doing so. So the story goes the neighbors did not know who it was and called the pigs. the pigs surrounded the house stealth like and actualy took a pop shot at him while he was still in his back yard. Not knowing who the hell just shot him he rand in his back door closed the door grabbed his shot gun and hunkered down in the hall way. As he sit there injured the door gets kicked in and he gets shot to hell. The cops told a completly diffrent story (go figure) however there was a witness the cops did not know was watching. There is more to the story as the cops have since made threats to friends and family in a effort to cover up what realy happend. As the kid cops stood in the front room the thought it would also be worth while to shoot through the walls and cealing into every room of the house. You know JUST IN CASE!! I mean my god what if there were kids asleep in another room. Now think about these cops background in Iraq and how they more than likley enter a hostile situation there and it all makes perfct sence. Scary to think our tax payer dollars fund these POS pigs. Oh yeah the cops involved are on PAID administrative leave. Did I mention I hate cops? Not all cops for those who serve just the stupid ones so 80% of the force. :)

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 44 weeks ago, 1:02 PM

ssrs10

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gunnin88

That is aweful...my word...

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses
5 years 44 weeks ago, 11:45 AM

Gunnin88

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Sorry

sorry grammer and spelling was so bad there I was rushing through the story.

Here is a link to what the paper and new reported. Which was a huge lie

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008372745_webcopshootin...

Not a word in the news about this since. AMAZING crap. I feel bad for his family. Our company Precision Collision has set up a scholarship fund in his name at a local trade school as to help that he and his story are never forgoten.

I did not personaly know him, but all accounts from the shop he worked at are that he was a great kid with a bright future.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 44 weeks ago, 1:39 PM

Pkato

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Realistic

When I said this was not realistic...I stand by that, I didn't mean it never has happened, but it is so unlikely that it's not something I would lose sleep over. Yes, Runaway, you cited some examples and those were handled incorrectly and you pointed out that the Branch Davidians were not planning to overthrow the government...I don't know what they were doing actually. But if the leader was sleeping with underage girls, he was breaking the law and if he didn't pay the correct taxes on weapons he had, once again he was breaking the law. My point here is, by following the law you can usually avoid situations like this...I don't mean following just the laws you agree with, but all. A lot of stuff can be avoided if you just do the right thing. As far as the cops go..I might be biased, both my brothers are cops (and good ones)...but once again, the time to address the cops and work out issues is prior to stuff like this. Ted Nugent in his first book had a good suggestion, he said talk to all the cops in your area, get to know them, if you are gun owner, let them know who you are, let them know you have numerous guns, which type, what you use them for, etc etc, that you belive in protecting your home, etc etc. That information and exchange of ideas will go a long way in keeping you be safer. Even when I was in the military, I was required to let the AF know that I had a gun in my housing unit...now, I never had an issue with this, but I knew that the police, if required to show up at my house would know. It's a very complicated issue...the beginning of this thread. But, would always try to get out of the situation without it coming down to a gunfight...which of course we would all lose. I mean, you might be able to kill someone coming through your door, but if it is a cop and there is a mistake...well, there are going to be a lot more coming...very interesting topic though.

PKato

Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
5 years 44 weeks ago, 4:23 PM

Gunnin88

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hmmmmmmm

PKato

Your right, unlikley, but it does seam more and more likley. Lets fast forward to 2011 when 40% of Americans could be jobless and highly motivated to rob you for whatever they need to sustain life. I would think this kind of thing could be a lot more common place. I had no intrest in assult rifles or stocking up on ammo untill our country started to fall apart at a rapid rate. Now I feel within the next few years, I very well may have to gaurd my home with loaded weapons. I hope I'm wrong, I was very happy with my life just the way it is, and have no want to have to defend my home or my freedoms.
A few years ago a guy could talk like this and you would think he was a looney toon, today half the people reading this are nodding their head saying to themself yep, yep were in a heap of trouble.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 43 weeks ago, 5:26 AM

runawaygun762

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Cops

are people. They are not special, or good. I believe the majority of people who become cops do so because they got picked on in school and want people to respect them. My wife's ex-boyfriend is still a cop, and he beat the shit out of her regularly, as well as sleeping with underage girls. Of course nothing happened, because he's a small-town cop and his buddies take care of each other. Cops have the same problems as everyone else, and I wouldn't trust them to know what I have at home any more than I would my neighbors. I may talk to the local law enforcement, but they will be kept at arm's length just like the rest of the civilians in my area. As for a lot more coming, I have a lot more ammo and much better training and experience.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
5 years 43 weeks ago, 9:19 AM

Reaper308

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Police officers

are not all bad. There may be a few bad apples with any group (look at Priests) but the majority of them follow the laws and are just doing their jobs. They are not out to screw citizens, plant evidence on them for wrongful arrest, and kick in doors without warrents. If the later were to happen, the cause would likely be human/intel error versus abuse of power or purposeful illegal entry. Most have families just like you that they are providing for, while trying to keep the drug dealers/addicts, gang bangers, prostitutes, and other criminals out of your neighborhood.

"Proelium Comminus Auctoritate" "Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a muzzle flash."
5 years 43 weeks ago, 11:19 AM

Gunnin88

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coppers

I followed a WSP from Kingston to Bremerton @ 75mph Monday (he was my Go Fir.) when he turned off in Bremerton I thoght to myself these fucks are all hypacrits. No more did I say that in my head and a Kitsap county cop flew by me with his lights off. I ofcourse used him and tried to keep up. When I hit 80 and he was still pullin away I backed off. as I approched a stop light I saw the cop turn onto a side road flip his headlamops off and set up a speed trap. This realy pissed me off. Lastnight I was awaken by some cop cars flyin by my house with sirens blazing. A few minutes later I got up and went out side for a smoke. I could heard some cars coming at a high rate of speed, much to my disbeliefe it was the cops coming back from their call with no lights on and doing atleast 70mph(speed limit is 45 at my place).
I am done with them I would not trust a one of them for any reason. I know there are good ones, but IMHO they are far and few between. Most of them seam to think they are above the law. They can lick my sweaty balls.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!
5 years 43 weeks ago, 11:35 AM

Pkato

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Well...as for cops

Once again, I have two brothers who are cops and to say that most or all cops are bad, corrupt etc is really not correct in my book. Then, to make allegations about all cops, based on a few instances is really not a good way to think, in my opinion. I am not getting on anybody's case, but thinking that all cops are bad really doesn't give credit to the very good ones. Same thing with athletes...look at the athletes that get all the press, the ones that do stupid shit. But, most of us don't know about all the good things athletes do, all the volunteer work, etc. I for one was given my introduction into boxing by the Police Athletic League in my hometown. A cop returned me to my home when I was young and got lost early in the morning during a thunderstorm, a cop lifted me into his car and took me to the emergency room when I got hit by a car as a kid (he determined the ambulance either broke down or got lost getting to the scene)...I could go on and on. Are there bad cops...of course, shithead cops, of course...but there are shithead gun owners too.

PKato
HIIC
T-Minus 25 days
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Patrolman Kato
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.
They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone
under independence. -- George Washington
5 years 43 weeks ago, 12:11 PM

Gunnin88

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As I said

I know there are some good ones but in my experience they are far and few between.

01*20*2013 Obamas last day!

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