Forums / Gun Discussion / What waterfowl load for an old barrel?

3 years 20 weeks ago, 7:58 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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I am wanting to start some waterfowl hunting, but I only have my 1920s Remington M11. I have been looking around to determine what non-toxic (i.e. no-lead) shot I can use. It seems steel, which is the most widely available and least expensive alternative, is right out. Apparently my barrel won't like it. There are higher-density alloys that could work, but I can't confirm what is safe for my old shotty. It sounds like tungsten-matrix, or other comparable shot components are what I need, but I can't seem to narrow down who the hell makes them. The ones I know of are:

Remington Wingmaster HD - but I think this is hard shot, so no good
Winchester Supreme X Xtended range High Density. I think this might work
Environ-Metal HeviShot - I think this is the closet to one I feel good about.

Any ideas? Besides buying a new shotgun? Me and the wife have already planned out all my money for the year. ;)
Also, why would it be bad for my barrel. Doesn't the shot stay in the cup until the wad separates (outside the barrel)?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 8:12 PM

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JM Browning

For waterfowl well waterfowl being birds I am sure ya want the birt in one piece. I suggest #6 Bird shot for ya and here is one type of Non-Toxic #6 Bird Shot.

Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 1-1/8 oz #6 Non-Toxic Hevi-Shot Box of 10

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=738312&cm_mmc=Froogl...

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 8:18 PM

Snake

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Another link

http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/gauge-waterfowlnon-steel-c-55_845_85...

Democracy is worth dying for, because it's the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.-Ronald Reagan
3 years 20 weeks ago, 8:50 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Owch!

$30 for 10? That's gonna be expensive duck. Shoot, it might be cheaper buying a new gun. Ooo, that might be the reason to sell the wife on it. :)

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 9:02 PM

Snake

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Yeah JM

I aint crazy about the prices either. Any reason for the Non Toxic? I would get a box of federal #6 shot for $7.99 but its lead shot.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 6:05 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Snake

It's a federal law. No lead for waterfowl hunting. It has to do with migratory bird, but I'm not sure about the whole details. But I know you can't use lead on duck and geese.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 11:03 AM

Snake

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Didnt know the law on waterfowl hunting. Thanks.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 7:39 AM

Ishootdaily

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SJBM non-toxic

From what I've read that Lead Ban is State by State not Federally Regulated...

Though Wild Life services would like everyone to use Non-Toxic ammo.

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 20 weeks ago, 11:09 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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It's Federal

There are states that ban lead for all hunting I think (CA comes to mind), but the Feds banned lead or any other material that the FDA deems toxic that waterfowl can ingest. They also restrict you to having only capable of loading 3 shells in a shotgun. You have to use a plug if the magazine can hold more. And the plug has to be such that you can't remove it without disassembling the gun. You can't even have lead shot on or near you when hunting waterfowl.

http://www.fws.gov/hunting/whatres.html

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 12:56 PM

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Thank you SJMB

I sure didn't know it, I haven't been bird hunting in a long time but my son is wanting to go in the near future. I would have been screwed I had been caught being ignorant of that...

It's a good idea, but mindless all the same. If they really want to do something about Lead in nature they should give prison sentences while skipping fines for those who dump old batteries, computers, cell-phones and on and on...

But I'm sure that Duck and Geese hunting does impact the Lead levels in water ways above what is naturally there...

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 20 weeks ago, 4:03 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Fishing

I hear they're about to start banning lead sinkers for fishing as well.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 4:21 PM

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I use live bait, throw a 12 foot castnet for Greenbacks, Crokers and Lady Fish. Or use Live Shrip and free line. Haven't been fishing where I need sinkers in a long time,

Grouper fishing we use it (lead), but we can use just about anything with the weight to get you to the bottom and has a hole in it so the live bait can swim normal so a Grouper will suck it up, then HANG ON.....

We wade fish out to about bell button deep and hook into Red's (Drum), Spec's (Sea trout) and Snook. I do not fish freah water here in Florida even though Bass fishing is fantastic. Got spoiled pulling in 18 - 42 inch fish... lol

seriously

No sir, he fell into that bullet... Never argue with a stupid person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!!
3 years 20 weeks ago, 10:32 PM

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Fishing,

SJMB, they have been talking about doing that for something like 20 years and have never managed to get it done so far. They probably will before long, and to be honest, I'm surprised they haven't done it yet. The EPA has tried and then a lot of the companies as well as the fishermen started coating their lead weights in plastic coatings. Some of the fishermen that I have known, used to take that stuff that you dip plier handles and stuff into to give them a plastic coating and would pour some into a bowl or old paint roller pan then dump their uncoated lead weights in it and coat them. One guy even managed to color code his weights. All of his 1/4 oz. weights had one color, 1/2 oz weights another and 3/4 oz yet another. Some of the others have taken to using small chrome plated nuts for some of their weights. I knew one guy who fished for catfish a lot who always used nuts or something like that because he said that with the braided line they didn't cut the line too bad. Most of the guys (that I know) who use monofilament still use some kind of lead weight but some of them coat their weights. I think some companies offer brass weights now as an alternative to lead weights. Just that brass weights tend to be quite a bit more expensive than lead.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 10:28 AM

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Bismuth shotshells

Were all the rage a while back. I don't know if they still make them but they had the weight and density of lead. They might be worth researching.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 11:34 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Thanks, Vaq

That did turn up some more results and it looks like bismuth is the best non-toxic for old barrels. It's darn expensive too, though. I wonder how many of these I'd have to shoot before I would be better off buying a new gun. Probably around 1000? Seeing as I'll only use them in the duck blind, I think it won't be too bad.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 4:01 PM

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you could

always get your barrel re sleeved,then you could shoot lead/steel stuff i believe,with no problem.

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 4:11 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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LBC

true. That's a good point. I'll look into that. But, after thinking about it, I only need this expensive stuff when I'm actually in the field and I won't be using that much of it. It almost has the benefit of making me be damn sure I drop a duck when I squeeze that trigger. ;)

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3 years 20 weeks ago, 7:42 PM

jay sedler

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saint,ive got a similar issue,i have my grandfarthers brand new old 60s rem 1100 12ga,and cant shoot steel,but its only a 2 3/4 in chamber anyway,so im not realy tempted to shoot most waterfowl with it anyway since alot of the shots are usualy pretty far.luckily i dont live in the condor range where you must shoot steel,or other non toxic shot(even in rifle/pistol)but the fact that i cant shoot steel will keep me out of the more southern part of Kalifornia,at least with that gun and my other grandfathers old 16ga.im looking for advise for a good load for turkey hunting with this gun.i know ill have to pass the farther shots,but im just curious if anyone has info on the subject.copper coated hardshot should be ok though right??thats what the guy at the local shop suggested i use.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 3:53 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Jay

sorry for just getting to this. I don't know about the copper plated shot. I heard that was bad too. I've been doing some shopping and I've found some loads that are supposed to mimic lead almost exactly for a little over $2/shell. I have this at home and will PM the info to your later tonight or tomorrow.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 11:50 AM

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saint

went ahead and took the guys advice and shot the copper plated shot.got a large double bearded jake at 30 yds full choke yesterday.dumped him clean.after patterning my first shot i checked my bore 2 c if it had any scoring,or copper fouling.it did not,so i went ahead and used it.i recovered one pellet from the neck,and it showed similar but less exadurated deformation than you would normaly see in regular lead shot.this leads me to belive there is no significant risk of erosion or choke expansion if any.if anyone out there has info on this subject please chime in,ISHOOTDAILY,LUCKYBYCHOICE...and others that have been around this site and know what your talking about your opinions would be appreciated.saint the amo i used was winchester superX turkey load 2 3/4 1260fps 1 1/2oz #4 shot grex buffer,copper plated.cost between 6-9$per box of 10 at most stores.i found mine on sale at the bigtop circus(walmart)for 6.50$.winchester also makes a similar load in their supreme class that moves at 1300fps,and has a little,or a lot higher price tag depending on the store.the guy at the local huntin shop that recommended this amo in the first place sells the supreme for an astronomical15$ a box.i shopped around town,and found walmart to have a limited,but inexpensive selection as usual.they didnt have the supreme in 2/34 in but i see no reason to worry about the extra 40fps anyway.thanks for your info saint,ill go check it out asap!

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 12:34 PM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Turkey

Nice. You got one. I'll have some before the seasons up. I'm determined. Knowing they're there is a good start.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 9:16 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Jay, Check this

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/36918-5.html

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 4:02 PM

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Jay, SJMB

It's just a thought, go get a new (or used) single shot "goose gun". Break open, all the chamber you want. Ammo wil be more powerfull and cheaper. I know the single aint sexy but niether is a follow up shot with magnums and 1 1/2oz of shot.
2 pennies.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 9:19 AM

Saint J.M. Browning

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Vaq

I've been think about that. I like single shot, break-opens. Classic feel. And I don't have to worry about a warden wondering if I'm loading more than three.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 12:08 PM

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vaquero

a new hunting gun is in the works,but using my older 1100 is really just to honor my grandfather,who bought the gun in the 60s.i have the original skeet barrel,full choke barrel,and a new rifled slug barrel for it.plan on getin a bear,and maybe a pig with it before i basicly retire it to mostly shooting range gun to protect it from damage,its got all the blueing ,no nicks or scratches in the metal,or the wood.it has had a sling stud put in the stock,and it has a few verry minor blemishes in the finish,but not the wood itself.i love the thing,but its like babysiting a little kid every time i take it out.haha.appreciate the advice,and im already workin towards getin a new hunting shotgun but havent decided what to get yet,and dont have the budget either.any advice on a semi auto,or pump,around 500$ guys??

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 9:51 AM

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banning lead sinkers

i don't wish to offend anyone but i do agree on a ban of lead sinkers,,here where i am from there are alot of guys who fish the Niagara river and such places and they are mostly morons and foreigners who just drop lead shot and sinkers everywhere. I pick up everything i find and being a lure kind of guy i don't really use them myself so they sit in my tackle. But what i can't understand is how they expect to ban the use of it in bullets..Then again they are all morons running the epa from what i have read. I hope i have not offended anyone it's just my opinion because i love my fishing and want my waters clean..thanks guys

3 years 19 weeks ago, 12:41 PM

jay sedler

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hellspawn

lead sinkers.no offense taken.i can tottaly understand why we shouldnt put lead into our water,and our migratory water foul for that matter.it is a hastle but it needs to be done in my opinion.i also pick up everything,im in the woods usualy at least 1-2 days a week,hunting, fishing,mushroom picking(not that kind) and im disgusted at the amount of trash people leave,and what they leave.i lmost always carry out at least 3-4 beercans,sometimes ALLOT MORE,ive actualy brought home an entire trashbag full of recyclable cans and bottles and another full of just trash in one day.as far as the banning of lead bullets, here in califuckya we cant shoot lead at game in the california condor range.thats a fancy term for the area a huge vulture lives.so because these things are going extinct because of habitat loss,powerlines lack of food.....blablabla we cant shoot animals with lead because if they die where we cant recover them the bird will eat them and die of lead poisoning,ya right.i eat lead shot every once in a while when i eat birds,squirl,rabbits that i shoot with lead,and im pretty sure i just poop it out like every other animal does.i think if the gov,state or fed wants to ban lead prjectiles they should have to find a reasonably priced aprox same performing product to replace it with,or atleast let folks like saint and i with old lead only guns continue to use lead.lets face it,most hunters out there have new guns so those that dont wouldnt put a significant amount of lead into the environment.most of us would probably even have the weapon inspected,pay a tax or yearly fee and get a liscence for lead if theyd let us.maybe if they did little things like that wed have a more balanced budget.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 12:52 PM

Hellspawn72

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jay

i must admit that i am kind of dumb when it comes to guns,,because it is so hard to own one here unless your a criminal. If you can't shoot lead then what are the bullets you can shoot made of? As far as trash in our wooded areas and anywhere by matter you and i are on the same page. it seems to get worse every year. i am a bowhunter so the bullet thing doesn't effect me.

3 years 19 weeks ago, 1:11 PM

jay sedler

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her in california(condor range only)solid copper or brass rifle bullets are used,and ive heard other lead substitutes are being made by some companys.for shotguns used for upland game in condor range and for all waterfowl steel, tungston alloy,bismuth are commonly used.Bismuth is a metallic chemical element which is classified among the group of elements colloquially known as “poor elements” in the periodic table. This element has a number of uses, making it common in industrial applications. Many consumers own products which contain bismuth, although they may not necessarily interact with the element directly. The bulk of the world's bismuth comes from South America, and it is also extracted as a byproduct from the smelting of some metals.

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 19 weeks ago, 1:24 PM

Hellspawn72

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Thanks Jay

Thanks for the knowledge. like i said i don't know much about guns but i do love them. I only own a couple pellet guns but even with them you need to give them your drivers licence to buy pellets. Next thing for them to change as well.

3 years 19 weeks ago, 1:44 PM

jay sedler

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guns/canada

gun ownership is heavily restricted,or completely illegal up there?i remember hearing about confiscation and weapons being destroyed,but i dont live there so i dont know all the particulars.can a citizen own handguns?rifles?shotguns?is there a special liscense required,or whats the scoop?ill ask my dad about some of the airguns he has,and others hes told me about,and post the info for you.some of these things shoot huge 9mm pellets and larger,and are about as powerful as a blackpowder guns,but way faster easier loading.may be of interest to you.OH,and wheres my manners,welcome to gunslot!now we got a canadian aboard ehh.haha.just kidding,yall probably get that evry time you talk to an american.

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3 years 19 weeks ago, 2:28 PM

Hellspawn72

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Guns/Canada

Well jay, thanks for the welcome, and no you guys are cooler then us you all like to share your knowedge. As it goes here first you need your FAC which you have to take a course for at your cost. Then if you get that you can own a long barrel but when it comes to hand guns or any other gun that is not a "true" hunting riffle,i.e. an AK-47 you have to get a special licence from the RCMP to own it, then if you want to go to the range with it you need another that is if you can buy one because to do that you need to file more paperwork, and that is more crap. They tried to make everyone register every gun even your .22 riffles but i am not to sure about it i gave up with trying. I hate paper. I have been reading about some of the pellet guns you talk about, all i have been able to buy here is .177 and most are no more then 495fps. and that is a good one like my Beeman. i think i have found a place in Toronto where i can buy a Webley but i don't get there much.

3 years 19 weeks ago, 3:18 PM

jay sedler

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hellspawn

here is one of the 9mm preecharged repeaters. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Career_707_9mm_Ultra/307

this link will take you to the same compays website,but for th .45 cal rifle that drives 180 grain rifle bullets at 650 fps http://www.pyramydair.com/p/big-bore-909s-sam-yang.shtml

this link will take you to a serious high powere large bore website.these guys actualy kill pigs bears and bison with airguns! http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

CRY HAVOC and let slip the dogs of war!
3 years 19 weeks ago, 3:31 PM

Hellspawn72

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jay

Thanks

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