ME262, Night Radar Jet - 2 seater Notice nose

ME262, Night Radar Jet - 2 seater Notice nose

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5 years 29 weeks ago, 2:36 PM

samD

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Bye....

5 years 29 weeks ago, 2:46 PM

LittleDragon

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clearly the fence like radar antenna arrangement that nazi night fighter radar was well known for such configuration of radar antenna.

enjoy the bar!

Your friend alway,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 29 weeks ago, 10:05 PM

LLE

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deployed like those shown. An educated guess would be a stacked Yagi-Uda, either used to transmit rudimentary electronic countermeasure signals, or to reflect and defuse enemy jaming signals, or to use in testing certain on board electronic equipment.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 29 weeks ago, 1:07 AM

LittleDragon

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LLE wrote:
deployed like those shown. An educated guess would be a stacked Yagi-Uda, either used to transmit rudimentary electronic countermeasure signals, or to reflect and defuse enemy jaming signals, or to use in testing certain on board electronic equipment.

No, it is Lichtenstein radar antenna. Just like those show in pictures and site that give you in first reply. Ryo didn't recognize nother version of this same radar on nother picture and at first thought it cable for maintenance. but this picture is a picture of the most advanced fighter version of the ME 262 Swallow that was make in war. the Two Seat Night Fighter version and it not be very good night fighter without the L. radar system. It just like those picture on site ryo list.

Just so happens that my good friends samD san and zx12rmike san and ryo have very interesting conversation about the ME 262 Swallow this afternoon and if you read the whole serie of post about this conversation you will see that ryo was humble enough to learn and grow and state when not sure about something and so was mike san and so was samD san and we all learn from each other with open mind and open heart neh. ryo not know about this particular mark of the ME 262 Swallow and was very grateful to learn. ryo love learning new thing. not pretend to know thing not know. and am happy to admit mistake when make one and there is proven track record of this about ryo. ask clint chan. ask reaper chan. ask samD san. ask victor chan. ask hug e bear chan. or do you only admit mistake, when confronted about misguided medical diagnosis and treatment, you make, from real doctor ka because ryo know real doctor on gunslot and he very dear friend. and did notice you admit mistake then although you didn't entirely and got full story of this later from victor chan who spoke with doctor friend on site when ryo was not online. and you not real doctor and you make medical diagnosis and criticize treatment for real diagnosis until "You stand corrected..."

It's the Lichtenstein radar. No doubt about it. This the ME 262 Night Fighter two seat version of the plane. It wouldn't be very much good night fighter without radar now would it ka Here is different view of same type warplane with the Lichtenstein radar as show from the front. and this is from a different source. http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Me262-B1A-40.jpg It's the ME 262 B 1 A equipped with the Lichtenstein radar which according to sources was the standard radar equipment for this mark of the Swallow. Hard to tell exactly which mark of the L. radar from the first pic, but this pic show it as what look to ryo like either of the 202, 212 or possible later version call the Berlin 240, but most likely not this cause this look like operational plane and so most likely not a later mark than the 228. ryo best "educated guess" is it the FuG Lichtenstein SN-2 220. but freely admit that guess could be wrong.
however if you have a source for the Yagi/Udas from Nihon and these also serve as night fighter/interceptor radars on Nazi advanced warplane too, ryo would be happy to take look at sources. clint chan very good teacher of ryo and he teach to alway quote sources when can, however some thing you just take a guy word for. for example, ryo is right hand person. would be very hard to quote source on this so you just have to take ryo word for it neh. You not cite source and ryo not convice this is yagi/uda, as in your quote, that not use for radar. again, what good would that be on night fighter/interceptor that need radar just to find a target in the sky ka logic is proof, fact only illustrate logic neh.
for example, in socratic method learn from father. thesis: all human are mortal. hypothesis: socrates was a man. synthesis: therefore socrates was mortal. interesting fact to support synthesis: he's dead. facts illustrate. they do not prove. logic is proof. you can't hit target at night in sky without either radar or luck. purpose of radar on night fighter is so you not have to rely on luck. therefore why would be logical to use antenna that you say is not also use for radar ka

LittleDragon

(Wisdom from a wise man, a child or an idiot is wisdom nonetheless...Ironkoji) <--- he's ryo pops d:-)

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 3:24 AM

LLE

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It shows a 262 with a Lichtenstein array--That is four, 2 element Yagis, vertically polarized, and forward looking. Probability is very high this installation is for radar.
The original picture posted has a DIFFERENT antenna installation. If you cannot perceive this, then there in no basis for further discussion.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 3:37 AM

LittleDragon

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interest, it very difficult to tell about this picture that samD put up but he say it also radar night fighter and is still of same type as the picture ryo put up from source. Assuming we can set aside our difference, which ryo think possible because believe it or not, ryo not hold grudge not matter what. is just not in nature, but assuming we can have open mind and open heart discussion about this, ryo would like to learn. honto (word mean true or truth or really) understand you very knowledgeable person in many area of weaponry and history and these are two thing so dear to ryo heart that am willing to learn from anyone who offer honest teaching. ryo is willing to learn sir. to ryo it very difficult to tell in this original picture. could explain what is you see that ryo not see and we start from there dozo, (word is polite way to say please).

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 3:47 AM

LLE

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in that picture, as opposed to other pictures of the 262 that are much clearer? I have been working in electronics, radar and radio communications, since age 17; I have operated and repaired such equipment, incuding antennas, and I have built my own equipment including designing and building my owm antennas-including Yagi beams.

I would like to think I hold no grudges against anyone, except the Islamo-terrorists.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 3:57 AM

LittleDragon

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even more. agree with you about islamic terrorist. ryo cannot see antenna assembly very clearly in the picture sam d post. if it what you say in original post showing doubt that it for radar, then could explain where the radar is on this NachtJager fighter/interceptor because this type warplane would have to have radar neh, as per ryo argument for this in long winded post that make to you. btw, ryo work very hard on that post and do over 3 hour research to make sure got it as right as could. there is not doubt it is a model B1A and so is therefore and 2 seat nightfighter/interceptor and would simply have to have radar to perform function unless part of your argument is that it experimental plane that use to improve and test techonology, an argument you not make very clear, but is this in fact what you are saying ka ryo cannot see whole of assembly very well and so cannot in good conscience deny that you are wrong about the samD picture. you do however agree that picture ryo cite does have the Lichtenstein radar is this not so ka. so what is it about the antenna that you see that suggest you have good thing to teach ryo here. ryo think it same type assembly as the night fighter ryo show you. like ryo being right hand person and cannot make citation to prove this, will simply assume you have no reason to make up story about ability with radar and electronic device.

LittleDragon.
PS am not being difficult. picture is little bit blurry and ryo cannot see whole assembly.

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 6:44 AM

LLE

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here. However I can try to tell you why I made the observations that I made earlier.
First, the two pictures are of the same tail number, and I assume no two ME 262's shared the same tail number.
Next, even if the plane is a dual cockpit night fighter, you seem to insist that that is the only mission it might have been given by the Luftwaffe. [Ergo, the antenna system must have been part of a Lichtenstein radar installation, because that is what you see on the "good" picture]. Many countries have used and still use many of their aircraft as test beds for many things, including electronic devices and weapons systems of various kinds. The german engineers and scientists were particularly adept at this kind of developmental process.
Please follow me carefully: The good picture clearly shows an installation of a classical Lichtie type antenna array consisting of FOUR, 2 element Yagi beams pointed forward, in the direction of the travel of the aircraft.
Two of the beams are mounted on brackets, on each side of the nose, and are joined electronically by an arrangement of co-axial cables internal to the aircraft. This gives the radar receiver much higher signal gain, than would have been possible with only one or two beams. This is necessary because the receiver is sensing ["skin return"] an infinatessimal percentage of the transmitted signal, bouncing back from the target. It also electronically defines the width of the transmitted beam signal.
Now when I look carefully at the not so good picture of the same aircraft, I see a different array on the nose. Most importantly, the array seems to consist of a four element Yagi pointed to the side of the aircraft [top bracket] and another mounted at the bottom bracket, also pointing laterally, rather than forward. I admit that the reolution quality of the photo is very poor, and the angle toward the nose could be confusing.
If my view of that antenna array is correct, that aircraft was being used as a test bed or had had a new system installed, at the time of the not so good picture. Two Yagis pointed laterally could easily have been an array related to a radar jammer. Thus, using a [night] fighter as we have used our Prowlers and specially equipped F-4's. Remember also, at the time, the Luftwaffe was in deep trouble, and could not afford the luxury of using the 262's only at night.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 7:26 AM

LittleDragon

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Is there some reason why LLE san cannot teach a short version of a course in electronic and antenna theory? ryo have had 2 year of trig based physics, 3 year of chemistry and a semester long course in metalurgical chemistry. ryo got A in all those courses. In physics we spent a great deal of time on electromagnetism. ryo am now a senior in high school, starting this fall. just cause self write and talk funny doesn't mean the CP affects all of ryo learning abilities. Ryo cannot help how he born. Nature compensates. ryo do poorly in kanji study and english study, but do well in history and math and sciences. ryo have also one year in astronomy. so do have some basic background education in relate fields and ryo could do something in return for you, your time and trouble. it does seem like there is willingness here to overcome past difference and to set aside and forget. ryo believe you have expertise in this field and am willing to learn from you in much the same way that ryo learn ballistic science and science of how to use propellants for bullet cartridges from victor chan and from clint chan. learn general knowledge about science of weapon design from father, victor chan, reaper chan and greasypaws chan. and am very proud these gentlemen take some of their valuable time to teach me and to work with me. have learn much since became a member of Gunslot. samD is also a good general teacher about many thing including social science, politic, economic and other thing such as history of technology. you could perhaps teach me enough basics for what ryo learn from to be worthwhile to ryo and if there something worthwhile ryo could do for you in return would be willing. there do seem to be willingness on both our part here to bury hatchet and not into each other back.
In fact ryo was astonish with your patience and understanding last night and it remind self of teaching from my pops' teacher that: most everyone is a better person than they think they are. if what ryo propose is impossible ryo not hold against you, but keep in mind dozo (word mean please) that ryo is hungry to learn. and think many people on site would breathe alot more easy if you and ryo were to end pissing contest and bury hatchet and come to understanding. this have happen to ryo before. Uglymech chan is dear friend now. ryo have pray for quick recovery to health for him. also runawaygun762 actual hurt ryo and cause physical pain and suffering that am not sure he understand to this day yet, but even so he and self have now become friend. there have been mean and nasty thing both LLE and ryo have say to each other, but no worse than trouble have when first join site with other people and now we friends and close friends and they also become ryo teacher. you also seem willing to overlook ryo difficulty in communicating and as would do for anyone who offer such courtesy to ryo, would also be grateful and hold LLE in high honor for such courtesy. Perhap a truly great teacher receive plenty reward in knowing that not only such prior difference have been overcome, but something of value have grow out of such. would very much enjoy to learn what you could teach ryo about science of electronic as it relate to thing like radar antennae and beams they produce and receive.
ryo not asking for sun and moon and star. only ask for little bit greater understand of this field you most apparently have great expertise in. ryo not ever believe you bad person cause ryo think only true bad person are enemy of our beloved America. therefore you could not possibly be true enemy. because ryo believe honorable LLE hold America in as high honor as self do.
btw, ryo often have problem with personal pronoun and so often refer to self by own name. is same for learning of nihongo and kanji study. ryo often mix rule of grammar between both language ryo speak. more often than not ryo tend to apply rule of grammar from nihongo to english and so have problem with make plural for example. in nihogon all word end in either vowel sound or letter n, so to add s to make plural not work in nihongo. all or almost all nihongo word are both singular and plural and one can know just from context.
from what have learn from LLE san during night, ryo is convince that could learn from you and not just in matter of which we speak of now.
ryo know you are senior citizen and know you have serve in military and for your service to our country ryo offer humble thanks.
ryo is alway hunger to learn. alway, except in kanji study and often wish during kanji class that some kindly person would take large gun and just shoot ryo and put out of misery neh. d:-)
will just ask you flat out. Pax ka Pax inter nos ka. Is it possible for there to be peace between us sir ka.

Your new friend, ryo offer friendship here from heart.

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 9:00 AM

LLE

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proper forum for it. You have an excellent science base, so here is what I propose that you do. It will require self study. I propose that you begin studying for a Technician Class Amateur Radio license, which is not difficult. Besides the regulations you must learn, you will be introduced to basic electricity and electronics. Once having completed that course, you should continue to the General Class license course. There you will learn more about circuitry and basic antenna theory. It does not matter that you may not be interested in obtaining the FCC licenses, the study is very good, and you could take the license exams also, just for fun. Amateur radio is a fascinating hobby, which permits you to assemble your own station and antennas, and virtually talk to people all around the world. [There are many good study guides, and you could look on the American Radio Relay League website, to see what I mean.]
I have done that for 53 years, and have many friends in foreign lands including Japan and Israel. You could do the same, and learn a great deal more about electronics and antennas while you are doing it.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 10:27 AM

LittleDragon

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this with my pops and see what he thinks about this. as for myself, ryo think this is very interesting and wonderful and most very excellent idea. course you recommend indeed sound interesting and think would have much general application.

thank you so much for this suggestion. ryo is very grateful.

Your new friend,

LittleDragon

d:-) <---- ryo in baseball cap

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 10:52 AM

LLE

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and if you have questions about any of the material covered, you are welcomed to ask me.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 11:00 AM

LittleDragon

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Ryo may have other technical question from time to time about other topics such as ryo main interest, which is in military science and especial the science of ballistic and science of design for different type weaponry and if cannot find these answer from usual sources at gunslot would be most very honor if could also feel free to come to you to ask advice. if this is also agreeable with you sir.
BTW it honto (word mean true or truly or really but in case at hand use word to mean true) that ryo is really 16 sai old and am really right hand person neh.

Your new friend,

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 28 weeks ago, 1:41 PM

fordvg

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Ryo

This is Stephanie and I have been a Amateur Radio Operator for a very long time too I will be going to upgrade tomorrow night to take the Technician Class Amateur Radio license then I will try for the General Class license later on. I have been around Amateur Radio all my life and my dad, mom and sister are all Amateur Radio Operators too. My dad got into it from my uncle that has been a Amateur Radio Operator since 1930's and he is 83 years old now so he has done it for long long time. And I know you would do great in Amateur Radio, there also has been many kids that have gotten there license so you will have to study for it and take test, that is what I have been doing for last two months.
It is kewlio to do this and listen and talk to people all over the world.
Aishiteru, Steph

"WAR IS A RACKET, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for the Bankers." Major-General Smedley Darlington Butler USMC Ret. 2 time Medal of Honor winner.
5 years 29 weeks ago, 10:15 PM

LittleDragon

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that is the standard Nazi Lichtenstein radar antenna arrangement.

go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_radar

LittleDragon

Moshi Moshi from LittleDragon
5 years 29 weeks ago, 11:53 PM

LLE

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installation. Research on the Lichties clearly show that their Yagi arrays are forward looking, while the picture in question shows apair of stacked Yagis, pointed sideways. Also the elements appear so flimsy as to demonstrate ground operation/testing. I doubt that such flimsy elements could withstand the force of the air friction even at takeoff speed.

Too old to fight, Too old to run, guess that's why I carry a gun! "would someone show this asshole the way out of town".[Rabbi Avram Belinski-aka "The Frisco Kid"]
5 years 28 weeks ago, 5:50 AM

ivantank

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did't have enough of them to make a difference in the outcome of the air war..whatever they had all their experiance pilots where dead

I have reasons for the things I do, just don't expect them to be reasonable
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