Car Stop gone bad - be careful out there!

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6 years 16 weeks ago, 10:18 AM

runawaygun762

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The cop did a few things wrong, but ultimately, the bad guy is dead, the good guy is alive. Justice has prevailed.

"I have always been a soldier. I have known no other life. The calling of arms, I have followed from boyhood. I have never sought another." From The Virtues of War, by Steven Pressfield.
6 years 16 weeks ago, 4:30 PM

Shakleford

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That Is One Lucky LEO

Don't know if the bad guy hesitated or if he was too drunk to function, but that firearm was right in the LEO's face!

"Two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red the white the blue.The other ones got a rattlesnake with a simple statement made, Don’t Tread On Me is what it says"
6 years 16 weeks ago, 2:36 PM

Schuyler

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If I am the victim in a home robbery and the assailant is about to or is shooting at me, I have the right to shoot back in self defense. But if we have an initial exchange and the assailant runs off, I do not have the right to shoot him in the back because the "threat is no longer there" right?

Just imagine this same scenario here except there is a civilian involved and the two are just 'chatting' before the incident. Guy #1 drives off in a hurry. Guy #2 shoots after him and kills him. Guy #2 goes to jail, right?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
6 years 16 weeks ago, 3:47 PM

greg az

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Got off all fours sometime earlier, doing pretty good to..sinus rhythm, breathing well, ..worst is past, but still a bit shaky.. Notice Both Schuyler and Lyle are on so I'm going to stay in condition orange for awhile to be safe..

Now as to the Dementmiesters question.. The use of force curriculum is a sliding scale thing, and agencies will actually have some variance.. I honestly do NOT know if this officers agency allowed the shots fired after he started to depart.. Be interested in TXLucky (and where's those pics of TBH guy..we still need em) assessment here, and what criteria builtsortatough is learning as we speak..

Of the subjects i had to teach (all supervisors with AZDOC have to assist with training) "use of force" was my favorite..as I felt i could help new staff avoid the investigations that are an unfortunate fact of life in Corrections.. I loved it because of the sliding scale aspect.. in other words what force is allowed matches the threat from the Inmate.. Complex but way important!

Now if that had been an Inmate.. All shooting would have been per DOC policy "TILL" he started driving away.. At that point the book says "nope" same thing with an inmate who is running away and an escape risk.. Remember in this case the individual has been convicted and is trying to escape from lawful custody.. Can i shoot in an empty hallway.. DROP THAT SUCKER WITH TWO CENTER MASS..

Now if its a hospital corridor and one other person is in that hallway.. "nope".. So due to the threat involved obviously the O had to use deadly force, but frankly in AZ and with my old agency the O could have been subject to a lot of bad stuff.. This was the one issue that would always draw the most negative from all staff.. I can tell you that i have had literally, and I'm honestly NOT exaggerating here, at least a hundred "BUT THATS JUST WRONG LT" on this one..

The deal with our AG was that what ever happened (vicarious liability issues) with the out of control vehicle, and the rounds that are flying into homes was subject to HUGE lawsuits and negative press.. Staff of course would say yes, but what are the responsibilities if that Inmate then rapes or kills others because we DIDNT do anything.. Possibly its because of our court of revue in AZ being the most liberal.. Not sure but can tell you that the "book" say "nope"..

My only addendum is that this was NOT changed after we became LE certified (AZDOC) and perhaps this is departmental policy that has or will be changed.. I just called an old friend who stated AZDOC still does not permit rounds fired at a moving vehicle.. so issue closed for my agency, it will be interesting to see what TX Lucky says on this..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
6 years 15 weeks ago, 9:29 PM

CharlesW

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that was a felony, where does fleeing the scene of
a felony crime come into play ?

A little rebellion is good medicine for the government Thomas Jefferson
6 years 16 weeks ago, 4:29 PM

Shakleford

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Schuyler

I'd say the first 5 were good...........not sure about the rest? I would also like to hear TXLuckyguys opinion of this shooting!

"Two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red the white the blue.The other ones got a rattlesnake with a simple statement made, Don’t Tread On Me is what it says"
6 years 16 weeks ago, 6:24 PM

samD

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If the person caused an immenent or peril, you have the right to shoot and kill. If said person turns and runs or hides you can seek him/her/it out and finish the job. The courts have ruled that that person will always be a threat and could possibly hide to reload, clear a weapon or return to kill you!

6 years 16 weeks ago, 2:54 PM

greg az

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Schuyler brought up an interesting question here, it would have caused problems in my old agency, and as stated i would be interested in your comments on this..

Gents I'll see you all later, time to run to the PO.. listen to a bit of Beck.. maybe stop at the range if i have time... Be back later, curious to see what TX lucky's comments are.

Maybe if were all lucky will have a new pic of TBH to go along with the comments....txlucky, on second thought, skip the comments and just go straight to posting those pics..

a man has to hold his word, hold his beliefs, and hold a good sight picture.
6 years 15 weeks ago, 8:59 PM

zx12rmike

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Schuy- Here in Lib land a private citizen would be raked over the coals in court for continuing to shoot as the perp walked, ran, skipped, cartwheeled, rolled, skateboarded, away. I've seen it in past situations, even a perp that has broken into a house, a guy was crucified foe shooting a guy in the back while trying to leave. If someone comes into my home uninvited, they are going to get everything I can deliver. I'll go ahead and fight it out in the court, but I WILL protect my family.

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home" Thomas Jefferson
6 years 12 weeks ago, 12:37 AM

Lyle Hutchins 1

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We all know laws are different in each State. Having said that. I say this, the driver had been drinking, he admitted it. second, he drew down on the Officer, I played it back several times, look and listen when the driver presents his weapon, and a click, sounds like a hammer droping on an empty cylinder.(the Oficer has a microphone cliped to his uniform.)
Driver theretened the Officer.
In Oklahoma, if a person(hope I get this correct) in this situation thretends an Officer, the can unload!! This Perp. is still dangrous, and can do harm to other people, he is already exibeted violanance, has the means to do bodly injiry and or kill an innosent person. This is as close to Ok. Law I can remember ( the Officer Needed his shotgun)
I'll have to research it.
Lyle
"I don't think this went bad" The Officer ( if it were me) perhaps should have approached on the passanger side. but he did not.
CLEET tranes to stand behind the driver looking over his sholder, where the center post is between you and the driver. This way he has to crook and twist his neck around to talk. you want him to the disadvantage. The Officer was lucky to go home that night!!
Lyle

Lyle Hutchinson
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Posted by: samD
6 years 16 weeks ago
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